Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:09 A friend once observed to me that human beings need incubators for good creative work. People often need to feel safe, a place to grow and cultivate their creativity. People also need places. They feel safe as consumers, places where questions that are asked of them in the wider world, aren't asked of them, placed with equity built into the system, but this inspires questions of community. How do we build spaces that are community centric and feed communities instead of leaching off of them? I think what it comes down to is people who both know their communities and themselves extremely well. That's the point of this podcast. We're trying to think about questions of labor, community, institutions, and knowledge. They're going to come up repeatedly. They already have today's guest in particular embodies this discourse. She actively thinks about it. She lives according to her principles, welcome to knowledge and its producers.
Speaker 1 00:01:02 A limited series from the Maidan produced by me and Aon sword. In each episode, we'll be talking to people who are at the forefront of knowledge production, typically away from the traditional educational power structures. There'll be talking to people who curate, who edit, who run research centers, who write more. So my field is Islamic studies and modern Arabic intellectual and visual histories. And we'll be talking to many people who fit into the study of Islam and the Muslim majority world. But just because I have specific interest doesn't mean our guests will always fit into these categories. It just means that we don't have perfect terms for describing this big intersecting world. Yeah. The goal is to get a wide variety of people talking about different ways of accessing history ideas and more to uplift the people we're interviewing and to inspire you. Our guest today has been ESSA Taylor. She is the founding editor of the drinking gourd magazine and she edits a newsletter called <inaudible>, which tackles issues of surveillance in the Muslim community in the United States. She's a writer and journalist tackling topics such as black Muslim woman, HUD Muslim, American politics, Afrofuturism surveillance, and more, our interview is going to range from the more abstract, the more concrete, the more personal, what is writing like for Vanessa? How much do institutions matter? What can we do to challenge them? Let's meet Vanessa.
Speaker 2 00:02:26 Okay. So we're going to start off with sort of an icebreaker question. What's your favorite snack right now? Um, I think it's honestly less of a snack and more of a whole meal, but since outside it's a little more open. There's the Halaal cart guys in Philly. Uh, well, and so if I'm passing through center city, I tend to go to them and just grab like a $4 Europe, uh, which I've missed throughout all the corn peanut, like the months that we couldn't have anything. Um, do you ever ask for like extra sauces on it or no, honestly, they already put a lot of sauce on it already, but I don't eat onions. This is the one thing I have to get it without.
Speaker 3 00:03:07 Well, I'm glad you can get it now.
Speaker 2 00:03:10 Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:03:12 Okay. So you are tremendously multifaceted, you're a writer and you write about a variety of different topics in a variety of different forms. Um, but I am curious because we are, we're all aware sort of, of the nature of publishing, which feel free to elaborate on if you had complete for you to, what would you write about?
Speaker 2 00:03:34 Yeah. Um, if I had complete freedom, I think I would be doing a lot less journalism, which isn't to say that I dislike journalism itself. I don't like it as my job. I don't really like any type of job though. Um, so that's not really a commentary on journalism itself and just work as a whole. But if I had complete freedom, I would be doing more fiction. I like sci-fi. Um, and so I would really like to focus on that, but fiction doesn't pay in the rare cases. It does pay. It takes a long time to get paid. Uh, for example, if you read a short story, you're putting easily, at least two months of work in something that's probably going to pay a hundred dollars a month after it gets published. And then if you're writing a novel, you already have to have the whole thing done before you can even get started as a novelists. So yeah, fiction rarely pays. And when it does pay, it's a whole long process and it's not really something you could rely on to like just live your life. Um, so yeah, if I have a complete freedom, I would turn more of the fiction inside by
Speaker 3 00:04:41 Who are your favorite scifi writers?
Speaker 2 00:04:43 I think Octavia Butler is kind of everybody's staple. Um, and then I, I, I really enjoy Afrofuturism and it's not necessarily like super specific individual people, although I will say I'm a big fan of like obsidian podcasts and people behind that, because I really like looking at just where like Afrofuturism is happening, not necessarily on a smaller scale, but outside of those big names that everybody knows about.
Speaker 3 00:05:09 Yeah. There've been some great publications that have come out and, and, and they're so niche that I can't, I can imagine that it's even more difficult pitching to them and making sure that you get paid a certain amount.
Speaker 2 00:05:21 Yeah, honestly. Yeah. It's just, it definitely, it gets, it gets difficult. Um, and also because when you get to like more than these publications or some of the ones that might align with like my politics more personally, they may not necessarily have the funding to just give you much because an ideal world, we would all get at least $1 for word, for a story. Um, before a short story, then you're easily looking at paying like $3,000 per story, um, minimum on the shorter end of a story. And obviously that's not something small, small, independent outlets can do. I know I've run a literary magazine. I know we could never be able to do that. At least it's not anytime in the near future.
Speaker 3 00:06:04 So I guess, how do you balance sort of writing for the people that you really respect and whose institution building you admire and getting paid?
Speaker 2 00:06:15 Yeah. Unless for journalism comes in, uh, cause you can definitely still, like you can have the topics you're passionate about and the people that you care about and still figure out how to frame that for a wider audience. And in particular, at hope white what's often a wider editor, um, or at least people who are doing the decision-making tend to be white. So that impacts things. Um, like for example, I read a lot about black Muslim communities. That's really important to me. Uh, and I try to stay away from kind of like the whole, wow. These people really exist type of thing. And instead like get into deeper into the issues and kind of start really touching on the topics that I'm passionate about within that, uh, which often looks like talking about surveillance. Um, and so, you know, recently I did an article on like CVE and connecting kind of the overall surveillance infrastructure to George Floyd's death in Minneapolis.
Speaker 2 00:07:08 And just talking about how his death was also aspect of surveillance just on a different level, but again, the interconnectedness of like being black and being in Minneapolis and being surveilled on all these different types of levels and what that means for black life. And that's something that, you know, that one got commissioned. So it was kind of a different story, but it's also, I'm very outspoken about what I like to work on. I'm very clear about like what my politics are. I have a Twitter and I use it for work, but it's also not entirely like a branded, you know, TM personality where I just kind of wipe away all aspects of me. Like editors still can get to know me and can still reach out to me that based off of that.
Speaker 3 00:07:49 So let's go back to fiction for a second. If you don't mind, um, would you write about the same themes you think, um, if you were right, if you had more of an opportunity to dedicate time and energy to fiction, or do you sort of let themes organically float to the surface of your writing?
Speaker 2 00:08:08 Yeah, I mean, they definitely come organically because I wasn't always as into even surveillance as I am now. Um, but if I wrote fiction or if I read more fiction, I would largely be dealing with the same things, even in the novel that I'm working on. It doesn't necessarily deal surveillance, but it deals with technology, um, and holograms and kind of this ongoing theme of like, you know, what it means to be black, what it means to like have your body being used in different ways in ways that you don't necessarily consent to and et cetera. And I think that's one of the things I like about science fiction is that it lets me take the problems that I'm seeing in real time and kind of magnify them to a thousand or kind of just dream where we're going to be in the next, you know, decade or so. Cause I prefer near future science fiction. Um, but looking at where we're going to be in the next decade or so of like just absolutely nothing changes.
Speaker 3 00:09:03 And how do you write characters?
Speaker 2 00:09:07 I think for me, they just kind of come, I know recently I was reading something about 20 more cents, how she talked about how she doesn't base characters off people, um, at least not consciously. And that's one thing I avoid doing because it just feels weird and also unnecessary. I don't really need to write a character that's based off of myself or like my mother or somebody I've met in the store to be able to write a character. I both my latest novel. Um, she really liked the character and that really just kind of came to me and kind of just developed her voice on our own. And I liked to have that freedom when I write, I know in like in the United States in particular, there's the whole, you need to have your plot and your character arc and you kind of need to have, this would be formulaic way of approaching a story.
Speaker 2 00:09:52 And I don't like that. I like to be able to just say, I have this overarching idea. Like I want to look at holograms and I have this one particular scene that I know is going to be in this book somehow. But other than that, I'm going to let the character guide me on like, what else is happening and what subplots are going on. And like all these other little intricate things, I don't sit down with a complete outline. I don't know everything that's going to happen in this novel. Um, I added when I was writing my novel added like a really major plot detail, I think it was the third draft. Now we did like four or five drafts. Um, so I ended up pretty late to the game and it worked. Um, but it absolutely wasn't something that I was planning on doing for the beginning.
Speaker 3 00:10:34 Yeah. That's something I think about a lot. It's sort of how a lot of these institutions aren't really built for people who don't look white, heterosexual, um, above a certain class. And I think part of that is this piece, like assumptions of like how we write. Um, and that that's a little scary to me. I think I've been thinking about it a lot in terms of like recipes, like recipes. Aren't really, for people, at least like me, I don't want to generalize, but like the type of writing that I just don't fit into, by the way. Anyway, um, I admire what you're saying, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Uh, and I, okay. So since we're talking about surveillance, let's sort of plug your big, not your big project maybe, but like it's the thing that definitely I've been paying attention to because it comes straight to my Gmail inbox. So I don't have to think about it. So if we're talking about form newsletters have had sort of a big year or two with sort of like something like sub stack getting really big as a format and people it's an interesting form because you can directly support someone, um, by doing by, by subscribing to a newsletter and you sort of have freedom over it. So your newsletter, you want to tell us a bit about that and sort of how you came to newsletters as a form of writing.
Speaker 2 00:12:04 Yeah. So, um, I launched Nuzzer, which is a independent journalism project covering surveillance, um, in may, uh, Memorial day. And I'd been toying with the idea of having a newsletter for a little bit, mostly because there is a lot of benefit in making sure that you have an audience kind of gathered off social media. Uh, I have a verified account, which I'm not just saying that, say it, but I'm a verified account. So I know it makes it a little harder to like kick me off Twitter, for example, uh, but black women get run off Twitter all the time. It really is just kind of a fact of being on that particular platform and on social media in general, like the harassment of black women, um, targeted harassment and kind of the backlash we receive and the way that these platforms don't really care to, you know, protect you because that's not really their purpose.
Speaker 2 00:12:54 Um, that plays out in a lot of black women getting de platformed. And so even though I knew that with verified account, it would be harder for that to happen to me. I also knew that it likely could, and I know my personality. So as Twitter starts to crack down on like swearing and things like that, mine kind of stopped doing that. So I figured I should have something of my own and what made the most sense was a newsletter. And I actually didn't plan to do something focused on surveillance. At least in this way, I was kind of just toying with the idea of what most people tend to do, which is, you know, they launched a newsletter and they kind of do like whatever comes to mind. So, you know, essays about different topics. Um, maybe just generally like a blog post to kind of like, honestly rambling is a bad thing, but sometimes it's just rambling.
Speaker 2 00:13:44 Um, but more I was thinking about it, the more I was like, I really don't want people in my life like that. Cause that's a big part of those types of newsletters. Sometimes as you're talking about personal things and what's happening in your daily life, and I don't want to do that because I like to keep a bit of separation between my personal life and my work. Um, and the more I was thinking about it more, I was like, I already kind of want to talk about Afrofuturism. I already like talking about surveillance and I don't really get an opportunity to cover these things in depth. So I decided that having a newsletter where I could do that and where most importantly, it wouldn't again be dictated by like, uh, an editor, um, and white editors in particular. And I wouldn't have to navigate that field.
Speaker 2 00:14:32 I could choose what stories I wanted to cover and there's pretty much nobody to tell them, you know, about it. Um, and so yeah, I made that switch from the general essay format to like a dedicated, independent journalism project, like the week before I plan to launch this thing. Um, and then of course, when I launched it that Memorial day and I launched it in the morning, so a little later George Floyd was killed in Minneapolis. So that also impacted, um, my newsletter immediately. I have plans to kind of be looking introduction newsletter, just a way for people to understand like why I was doing this project and what I envisioned with it, but that just felt like it was ignoring just everything that was happening outside and going on around me, particularly as somebody who is from Minneapolis, even though I live in Philadelphia now. And so the first post that I actually did was because there was a collection of duals against the surveillance state, which ultimately I think was a much better way to open up that project.
Speaker 3 00:15:32 Oh, I really, really love that aspect of it just as an aside. Um, okay. So how has the reception been? Like you've had a couple of months, you've done some really interesting things with it and brought some really lovely people in to collaborate with you. How's the reception been from different facets of your audiences because I'm assuming you have like a primary audience that you intend to write to and then you have all these other people chiming in.
Speaker 2 00:15:58 Yeah. Um, I think it's been interesting for sure. The most popular pieces are the ones that are about Islam and Muslims, which doesn't surprise me. I figured that would be kind of the base audience that I had, um, were Muslims who are also either doing anti surveillance work and just kind of generally interested in it because that tends to be my base on Twitter. Um, but right now I really like toying with bringing guests writers and kind of figuring out what works there. Uh, I was very personal about leaving that open because I decided if this is going to be an independent, you know, journalism project, I know a lot about surveillance. There are a lot of things that I could talk about and that I can cover, but I'm also well aware that like, I'm you have your niches within that? So, you know, I know the most about like surveillance with Muslims and black Muslims in particular are like black people, the United States and kind of these abstract theories, but I might not be as qualified to talk about some specific things.
Speaker 2 00:16:56 For example, we just had a guest piece go up on the census, um, and just kind of like how, uh, procurement itself is surveillance. And so that, that might be something I know, but it's not necessarily something that I'm feeling immediately. I'm not say qualified, I could write about it, but I just wouldn't want to. So opening up that door to somebody else who, where that is their area of expertise and that's something that they're passionate about, passionate enough to pitch you about. Um, I think has been really interesting and something that I really enjoy being able to do. Um, but most importantly, while I didn't narrow down guests writers to just people of color, at least I don't think I did. Um, that's, who's been pitching me for the most part. And so it's also great to have the surveillance platform, um, a civility technology platform where it's mainly people of color who are writing just because journalism as a whole is really white, but technology is one of the widest beats that I could imagine. Um, but I would say this is somebody who is a tech writer and who has like tried to get into that field. That's really hard because of how white it is. And so again, have the space where it is people who most likely, otherwise wouldn't be able to get into some of the tech publications. I wouldn't be able to join these conversations outside of maybe academia is really important.
Speaker 3 00:18:18 Yeah. It's, I mean, we'll get to digital community in a second because I do a want to commend you on the newsletter. I mean, I'm looking at it right now. I just pulled it up and it's, I mean, a stunning logo. That's just so brilliant. And the, it like the theme aligns really well. I mean, Nazar like, has this connotation of being seen and the, um, it's often affiliated with sort of an iconic figure and you've just done such a good job with the logo. And then of course, like one of the last issues from like two weeks ago, which was one of my favorites was, um, titled pursuing a people's exit Jesus and Islam against surveillance. And I mean, I just, I love the idea of you taking something that's been done so continuously in the Islamic tradition and in other traditions of the Muslim majority world, um, sort of XG Jesus or commentary, and the fact that you took this and you did what people have been doing since the beginning of the faith, pretty much, which is like adapting it and evolving it. And it's here on a newsletter. It was just, I thought this was, if that was a great, like creative expression, I loved it.
Speaker 2 00:19:32 Thank you. Yeah, that was, uh, also a last minute idea, um, which I'm glad it ended up working out. I was worried that I wasn't going to be able to get all the responses together and
Speaker 3 00:19:44 Now you really pulled it off and I loved it. And it's, I mean, it's, it's, I think also people want to see the forms with which they identify the generals, they identify with represented in new and different ways. And yeah, I think a lot of your work represents that. Okay. So how, what, how, how do you see it evolving?
Speaker 2 00:20:09 Yeah. Oh, I think it's a hard question mostly because of who I am as a person, um, which I've mentioned, you know, another itself is kind of less than an idea of the article that you're talking about with the last minute idea. So I, I tend to be very go with the flow, like if I have an idea and I think it's good, it doesn't matter if I need to have a dump in the next few days, I'm going to try to have with Ellen for the next two days. Um, so within this, I think I'm just very free-flowing. I kind of want to see just where it goes within this, like first year of its existence. Um, like what pizzas are people kind of responding to the most? How people like the guests writer portion, how do I kind of work that into the publishing schedule?
Speaker 2 00:20:52 So there's more interaction within things along those lines. I'm looking at its growth on other social media platforms since I do have a Twitter account for it and then kind of going from there. But I think I don't have any intentions of moving it off of like being a newsletter or off substance anytime soon. Cause I know that's a possibility I could take this and I could make my own website for it. And that's just not something I'm particularly interested in that feels like way too much work right now. And I do like the fact that it just comes straight to your inbox and it's very easy for me to do. Um, but yeah, I think it's, it's just kind of seeing where it goes and kind of moving from there and just moving with the project itself rather than having any dedicated idea of what it's going to be.
Speaker 3 00:21:38 No, I think that's a really, you know, yourself that's really clear and you know, sort of how you function and how you work and most people don't. I think, um, when I do like, just to echo what you said, the fact that it comes straight to your inbox, because I don't read all the tabs open, but if I want to go to another email, I have to sort of, you know, I have to, the screen has to entirely change. So I tend to read it because it's directly in my inbox. Like I kind of feel, I don't know, there's something about that, my brain that just works that way. So, okay. I'm gonna ask you sort of like a bigger question, which is sort of more institutional. So how do you sort of see this as the direction that publishing is moving in?
Speaker 2 00:22:28 Yeah. Um, there are definitely a lot of subsets going up from a lot of journalists who have bigger platforms than me and who are moving away from career positions, which I think is telling, uh, digital media has kind of been free falling for years now. I think at least once a quarter, there's the news of like some major company, either doing mass layoffs or like a big notable outlet gets bought out and then they do mass layoffs and they bring everybody back as part-time workers or, well, not everybody. We bring new people back as part-time workers and essentially get rid of like the staff job with salaries and benefits and the like moving to relying on freelancing and the freelancers don't really get paid. Uh, so it's a whole thing. So yeah, I can see why this is the direction that a lot of people that we're meeting are moving right now, because at least with sub stack and newsletters, you get to be in charge again.
Speaker 2 00:23:29 There's no other editor you have to answer to, is that really overarching editorial calendar. You don't have to like deal with legal, which can be annoying, uh, or like, you know, the vision of a particular magazine or anything like that. It really is just, and your ideas and your content. Um, that being said, it certainly shouldn't be how things are going. Um, there's no reason that the people at the head of these companies couldn't figure out how to sustain websites and how to sustain staff jobs and things like that. Um, the issue is that, well actually a lot of them aren't competent. It shouldn't be in charge of drones and sites. That is part of the issue. It's a lot of private equity firms that are getting into journalism, who shouldn't be in this space. Um, but also just the concept of like a paid subscription model, which is what <inaudible> is when you have paying subscribers can work for like bigger magazines.
Speaker 2 00:24:27 Like you can figure out how to do that on a larger scale. The issue is that they're relying on like ad revenue, um, like Facebook and social media, uh, but primarily Facebook to kind of get articles out there and to get eyes on the website. And that's ultimately not really going to work. We see that now. Um, and so for like all the people who have been kicked out of journalism and haven't kind of brought from these spaces, I'm happy that we have newsletters and sub stack and kind of different ways to create content and engage with their audience. But at the same time would I prefer to have a salary job and what I prefer to just have like health care and like clear benefits. Yes, absolutely. We'd be a lot less taxing for me personally, like emotionally, just in every way.
Speaker 3 00:25:12 Okay. So no, I'm very sympathetic to that and it's absolutely scary to see them move in this sort of direction. And I guess, I mean, mostly because like you said, sort of the material benefits that directly relate to your wellbeing that are important, like healthcare and then dental being left out of it and dental being super expensive and people not realizing that you need eyes and mouth in order to function well, and there are all these different layers to sort of how, yeah. Um, so I also sort of, I guess I wonder what a lot of these moves have to do with expertise and like how expertise is getting, you know, how would we define expertise and how is it changing? I suppose, I don't think there's any like, uh, a right or wrong about this. I'm just curious sort of how you think about these, because I mean, whether you, like, I mean, do you district, I don't want to define you as an expert and then for you to say, well, I don't see myself as an expert, but I certainly think of you as an expert.
Speaker 2 00:26:13 Yeah. Um, now I can understand seeing the, as one for me personally, I think it's complicated. Um, that's tweeting the other day about it. I think for me, sometimes expertise comes to just, just a lot of like expectations and pressure at the same time, which I think I'm not particularly interested in. I do know a lot about surveillance. I know a lot about black Muslims. Um, I know a lot about a lot of random things just because of how I like read. Um, but yeah, when I think expertise, I think there's just always this idea that you have, you know, quote unquote qualifications from like some institution somewhere, which I don't have. I don't have a bachelor's degree, let alone a master's or a doctorate, and I'm not interested in having any of those. Um, and the way that I gather my information, yes, I read academic texts and I read other journalism, like journalists work, things like that.
Speaker 2 00:27:10 But I also have a community organizing background. And the way that I first started learning about surveillance was because the smell of youth in Minneapolis organizing it gets CBE. Um, so this didn't come to me from like an academic texts. They didn't even come to me from like, you know, the New York times or even the publications that I like, or like smaller indie outlets. Like it came directly from people who were on the street who were in their communities. Um, and so, yeah, I think that's one of the things that's hard about expertise is like on some level, yes, I can understand if people call me that, um, and I can see why people might fight for that label to particularly, you know, if you're a black woman, um, and your expertise is constantly put into question, even if you meet all these qualifications and like a white supremacist society where like you got your doctorate, you did all that work and people still think you're not good enough. I totally understand arguing for that label. Um, and at the same time, I think it's worth looking at the label itself and the different ways that it can be wielded. Um, and kind of even with your inclusion, who's going to be left out of it and then asking yourself, so then is it really worth sticking around and like keeping that,
Speaker 3 00:28:20 Yeah, I think the word expertise has been like, it's been birthed in this different cauldron again, like it doesn't really acknowledge the people who, you know, gain things through experience, like you said, and I, I D I, yeah, I'm with you on that. And on there being this like, assumption that you have to have these quote unquote qualifications when experience should really count for just as much, um, are there any institutions that you want to be a member of that recognize expertise or does that, it seems like that doesn't interest you at all?
Speaker 2 00:28:58 Yeah. Yeah. I can't think of an institution. I want to be a part of, um, yeah, I'm really just kind of content to be, you know, just generally here doing my thing. Um, if whatever institution recognizes it recognizes it. That's cool. Um, but it's not necessarily like a motivating factor, a primary concern of mine.
Speaker 3 00:29:20 Are you, are you interested in building new institutions or do you think that that sort of model is completely flooded?
Speaker 2 00:29:26 Yeah, I think I'm more interested in, I know you said you wanted to touch on this, um, but I'm definitely more interested in just building community, whether that's digitally or real life for me more digital, just because I have a very low social battery. Um, but yeah, but yeah, I, I think, again, it's just getting away from kind of like what we're already confined within and trying to figure out how we like create an exist outside of those spaces.
Speaker 3 00:29:57 And I mean, okay, so you've also written about digital community. I just want to sort of alert people to this excellent article you wrote on bitch media that we'll link to in the show notes, which was about black Muslim communities. And one thing I really admired about that article was it said very plainly it didn't sort of beat around the Bush, sort of what the problems, um, relating to black Muslim communities online were not within those communities themselves, mostly in appropriation. Um, and I love that you said it's so plainly it was something I could so easily hand to someone and be like, here, read this. This is why you shouldn't be using these memes.
Speaker 2 00:30:37 Oh yeah. That article, uh, that was a result of a fellowship that I had with bitch media. I don't think if I wasn't a fellow that would have been picked up because even when I was like talking about it, I wasn't quite sure how to pitch it to the person who runs the fellowship. I was like, listen, I know what I'm talking about. You have to trust me. It's a thing. It's enough here for an article, but it's not really been talked about before. And it's really hard for you to boil it down into like the 200 words I need for a pitch.
Speaker 2 00:31:09 And how do they receive that? Um, they received it pretty well. Uh, I like bitch and I like the fellowship. So it was a lot of also talking and working through the idea of like going back and forth like that. Um, because yeah, again, otherwise, you know, when you traditionally pitch, you just send your editor, like, here's my story idea, 200 words or less, you don't always have that opportunity for like that back and forth, which fair editors get a lot of pitches. Sometimes you just have to say, no, they don't have time to ask you follow up questions. Um, and then also if they don't know you, they have less likely to take a chance on you, particularly if you're a black muscle woman. And so there's a lot of ideas that just kind of like tossed to the side.
Speaker 3 00:31:48 Okay. So, um, yeah, like I said, I think that's something I would, I love about that article is that it sort of highlights procarity and that's something I sort of want to talk about before we talk about how to build digital communities, which I think is something we're both interested in sort of talking about, but what are sort of, let's talk about the precarious nature of having these communities digitally, but also sort of the weird and wonderful side of it.
Speaker 2 00:32:12 Yeah. I mean, I think for one just we can look at Twitter as the key example because the article that's what I was talking about for the most part. Um, Twitter is like a site for Nazis, even though there's a lot of like dope organizing that goes on on Twitter, a lot of the great black Muslims, a lot of really good anti-sugar balance where it can organizations and like voices on that platform, but does any race, the fact that Porter carries itself, it really loves white supremacists in that season. It is more interested in protecting them than it will ever be doing anything for the rest of us. Um, you can just look at reports that came out with motherboard. I remember one that was talking about how Twitter essentially wouldn't use algorithms like it did to tackle ISIS, which is also a whole other thing.
Speaker 2 00:33:02 Um, but it wouldn't use those algorithms because it realized that if it did use the same algorithms to try to address white supremacy on the platform and it would end up banning Republican politicians, um, and you can't have that. So again, it's, it's all about like the status quo and who deserves to be protected, you know, who even qualifies for protection. Um, but at the same time, that's what it was like a Nazi platform. Again, you could still have the dope organizing going on. And so it was kind of the inherent paradox of that platform. Um, and just kind of what in general, that's kind of life. I mean, it's not like I'm meant to exist in this way in the United States, you know, um, as somebody who's like black and black American and my family's from the South and like, you know, being descendants of enslaved people and things like that, obviously I wasn't meant to be here talking on a podcast or like writing about these things or reading your writing at all. Um, so that paradox is always just kind of a daily part of life. And you kind of have to learn how to navigate that and navigate systems that aren't necessarily for you, um, systems and products that aren't for you, but you're still gonna make it work for whatever purpose that you need.
Speaker 3 00:34:14 Okay. So I'm totally empathetic to all of that. And yeah, I like the little nod you gave to the fact that maybe even literacy isn't an inherent good, which I think a lot about, um, yeah. Thinking about those things that we lost was always hard, but okay. So can we talk about sort of what positive it's or not positives, how this platform has been adapted Twitter in particular, since we're on that subject? Like, how has it been adopted and sort of two, we can just talk about your, your purposes. Like, how do you enjoy what brings you back to the app and like, how do you, so I'm talking about tech, we might as well say, how do you hack it?
Speaker 2 00:34:57 Yeah. Um, I mean, I think just, you know, Twitter has its various subsections, right? So there's kind of the running jokes about Muslim Twitter, how nobody wants to be there or associated with it. Um, what do we do this? Um, but even then, and I argue that in the piece there's black Muslim Twitter specifically, I'm the same and there's black Twitter generally because black Muslim Twitter, specifically within both of these things. Um, and so it was just a creation of like community. I don't think there's a better way to put it because it's not as if black Muslim Twitter has like, you know, a membership cards like application for entry or any of that. It really is just kind of a way of being online of being very loudly, black and Muslim online. And I think some of the most notable, like, I don't want to say byproduct, but I guess some of the most notable byproducts of like black Muslim Twitter are Poplar hashtags, like being black and Muslim or black, our EAD, both of which got plenty of media coverage, but you continues to get media coverage each year being black and Muslim was more opportunity for like conversation discussion about, well, what the hashtag says, what it says on the pin.
Speaker 2 00:36:09 Um, but then I'm also thinking about just the ways that you can have like the drinking core, which is a literary magazine that I run or Sapelo square or other projects that aren't necessarily like based on Twitter, right? Like each of these things take place outside of Twitter. Um, but they're all able to come on this platform and be a part of black Muslim Twitter, and continue to develop themselves and their communities off of, you know, whether the platform is medium, um, or a dedicated website or like in-person meetings or WhatsApp, you know,
Speaker 3 00:36:46 Occasionally it said that sort of, one of the advantages of something like Twitter versus Facebook or even Instagram, is that it puts you into direct contact with your audience, if you're quote unquote, a content producer. Um, how has that affected? I mean, we've talked about Nazar, but some of your other projects, like the, like the drinking gourd.
Speaker 2 00:37:04 Yeah. Um, I mean, that's certainly is a benefit. I think you have to kind of very careful balance and ensure that you are speaking with your audience, uh, because just because you're reading my tweets, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm thinking about you when I'm working on anything. Um, and so for the drinking gourd though, I think one of the clearest ways that it impacted that project was, I'm pretty sure I met almost everybody where I'm working on, who's working on that project with me online. Um, and so we, we kind of met and this, again, very specific subsection of Twitter that, that is black Muslim Twitter, um, and kind of like I started following them. They started following me and develop that kind of online relationship. And then I was looking around and just noticing that there are different literary projects, but there isn't a dedicated, or at least I wasn't aware of.
Speaker 2 00:38:02 And I'm still not really aware of any other dedicated black Muslim literary magazines. There's a bubble square, but it's not a literary magazine. Um, not just say that to people know that I'm not forgetting them. Uh, they do great work. Sometimes they feature also creative, like poetry. I think, I think they've done fiction, but I don't think they brand themselves to the literary magazine. Uh, so I want it to be like really clear with that branding. Um, and like just explicitly give black Muslims the space to do, you know, essays, poetry, and fiction. And I didn't want to with like articles daily news or anything related to journalism. Um, and so, yeah, like I said, I looked around and I noticed that they're really narrow spaces and I kind of just pulled together people that I had already knew online. Um, and when we launched the drinking gourd, I wanted to have something where we paid writers immediately because a lot of times smaller outlets will be like, Oh, well, we'll pay eventually, but I don't think eventually is good enough.
Speaker 2 00:39:01 I think if you don't have like a clear timeline, even if you don't say, well, we're going to start paying writers by this specific date, it is really easy to just not ever do it and not ever get around to it. Um, and we've seen this with other big Muslim websites who also inspire me to create the drinking gourd. And so I decided weren't going to do that. We were going to make it a priority through pay writers at the beginning. We're not paid as like the editorial volunteer staff, whatever you want to call us. But for me, that's fine. You, you signed up to be a volunteer. Sometimes you don't get paid. It's literally in the name. Um, but when we launched, we actually decided to go with fundraising instead of applying to grants. Um, namely, because we kind of had a quick timeline.
Speaker 2 00:39:49 I think I came up with the idea during Ramadan of a year or two ago. It was probably around May-ish and we launched by October. Uh, so we just didn't have the time to really apply for grants. And we also, again, didn't want to be beholden to like what the institution wants and what the institution thinks a black Muslim literary magazine should be. We wanted the space to kind of create the drinking cord and let it happen and let it kind of take shape. And then maybe from there, I applied for grants, but at least we know who we are and we already then have a, you know, at least a year's worth of work testifying to it. And so we launched the fundraiser. It was because we were in connection with our audience already that we were able to raise any money at all, but enough money to not only cover our original plans for paying writers, which was $50 per piece.
Speaker 2 00:40:39 But in the light of the coronavirus pandemic increased how much we pay writers to $75 per piece. Um, and we still have money. I don't imagine we're going to like completely run out of money anytime soon. So hopefully we'll be able to like get more funding, um, and start paying writers more. But again, it's only because we're in direct contact with our community, um, and that they, like we know them and they know us outside of this project, people know us and can trust us and then can trust that, like, we're not going to take, you know, your $50 and a hundred dollars and like run off and do something the complete opposite of what we said.
Speaker 3 00:41:15 Okay. So I guess since we're talking sort of about digital communities and institutions and how you are building institutions ethically, how do we hold other institutions to higher standards? It's so hard.
Speaker 2 00:41:34 Um, you know, cause I've definitely I've protested. Um, and I've gotten at people directly on Twitter and social media. Uh, it really depends on like the institution and what in particularly that they're doing. But I think sometimes honestly, just stepping away from them and doing your own thing, it's like a big kick in the face. Um, because you know, again, the drinking gourd, but I'll just say part of why lots of drinking goes because there's a whole thing going on with Muslim girl, not paying writers. Um, and Muslim girls would call it out time and time again for, you know, a whole bunch of issues anti-blackness in particular. And so do I want to waste my time arguing with Amani on Twitter? Not particularly, do I really feel like writing a letter? No. So I'm just going to do my own thing and we're just going to divest from that completely.
Speaker 2 00:42:26 And you'll either fix up or you can just go work with like white people and be like their token. That's not my personal problem. Um, and then it's not really my concern. Make sure you do better than that. Like if that's, that's where you're happy, that's where you're happy you do you, uh, but I'm going to be over here in the corner and we're going to actually be doing what's needed and like our own thing. And so yeah, sometimes I think I'm more concerned with that at this point and then trying to make institutions ever do or be better. I think just part of how I'm not that old, but part of getting older is just accepting that sometimes things aren't necessarily going to be fixed in that way. And sometimes the solution really does look like stepping away and doing your own thing.
Speaker 3 00:43:08 You mentioned at the beginning of the interview that you, if you could be writing anything, you would be writing fiction. And we talked a little bit about the novel project. And would you like to, I mean, that's obviously is that your big project right now and is that what's taking up most of your time sort of how it's fiction playing into your work life, creative life balance. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:31 Um, it certainly is picking up most of my time. So when I started this novel project, um, again, I think I started it like last year I decided to religious guilt myself. I sat down and I said it was Ramadan. So I said for every night that you don't go to tater week, you're going to spend the amount of time would be a prayer writing. Um, but as it is while I live in Philadelphia and there are a lot of mischief near me, I don't like most of them, um, they, the type where they like, Oh, we just got a woman's side and we've been open for 10 years. I'm like, so I'm not going. Uh, so what that meant is the one that's should that I go to and am kind of comfortable in is a forty-five minute train ride away. And so most nights I did not go to wheat.
Speaker 2 00:44:12 I spent most nights writing. Um, so I did at least finish the first draft of my novel. And it wasn't pretty, I say that because of the, if anybody's thinking about like taking on that project, um, it's going to suck the first time. Like in no matter what, you can be a fantastic writer, you can have every single thing outline your first draft sucks. That's just how it is. Um, and so I did a couple more drafts from there. And for me, I know a lot of people say don't rush and I'm not trying to rush, but at the same time, people will be like, Oh, well I took a couple years to work on this and that's also not how my mind works. Um, a I'll just forget about it. So I can't just take a couple years to write something, um, because it will get placed somewhere else.
Speaker 2 00:44:59 I'll forget that the document exists and it will never get done. Um, and so for me, I just kind of needed to, uh, sit down and get through it and just make it happen. So right now I'm in the early querying stages. And when I'm working on it, I'm fine saying is a revise and resubmit. So essentially we're at age and is like, I read this. I like it. Here's some things that are like to see change. And if you want to make those changes, then send me the updated draft. And like, we can talk again from there. Um, given that this is like my first novel that I ever completed. And I'm also again in the early creating stages, I think I only queried like three agents. I'm fine with like that response. Um, but that does mean that I have to dedicate like a month or two to going through the draft and kind of working on that again.
Speaker 2 00:45:48 Um, and again, it is an awful, so it is like 200, almost 200 pages. So that's a considerable project to kind of take on and go through all that and revise it and like remove scenes or add different scenes throughout and kind of reorder things. And so for me, what that looks like is kind of dedicating my mornings and my afternoons and I step away from freelancing in particular. Um, so like right now I'm wrapping up my last freelancing article. And then after that, unless somebody commissions me, I don't plan to take on any freelance projects. And I plan to just focus on this novel for like the next month
Speaker 3 00:46:26 Show off. And I'm really, really excited for you. And yeah, I, again, I just want to emphasize, it's so obvious how well, you know, yourself and your process that you're able to sort of, you know, tell people who are more or less processed Nazis to take a hike because you do you and you like processing. I mean, that's something that I've sort of been exploring with this podcast, but also sort of through life. Like you go through different phases of things, working for you and that's okay, you don't have to do what everyone else is doing. If you want to write everything using a quail and that works for you. I was literally just trying to think of something ridiculous, but anyway, but if people do that, that's completely fine. Like,
Speaker 2 00:47:08 Yeah, I definitely think it comes from like I at school, I was a terrible student. Um, and I had a lot of organizational issue issues with focusing. I'd probably add, but like it never diagnosed. Um, that being said, it was a lot of people trying to be like, well, Vanessa, this is what you have to do to be organized and stay focused. And so being an adult, um, I, I very much have to be aware of like how I work best. Otherwise it will not get done. Um, and kind of shoving away all the different ways that people say, you need to have your work done because really at the end of the day, and this is part of the good thing about being a journalist, particularly freelance and working remote, as long as the draft gets in. And it's not terrible. Who cares how I did it. Like I work in the park more often than I work from home, or at least I did when outside was open and that may not be traditional. Maybe some people need complete silence, but for me, I like to be outside and not like the people watch while I work and take fruit Confederates and like have those five to 10 minutes to kind of just look around and like be outside of my projects.
Speaker 3 00:48:12 Are you going to head to the park today? I hope
Speaker 2 00:48:15 So. Yeah. Probably get started. Actually, it's on my to-do list for the week to get started on the first chapter of revisions. So most likely
Speaker 3 00:48:25 That's really exciting and I'm hope that I really, really hope that this, like, I hope we get to see it soon and I get to buy it and hold it and take it to a park and read it on the grass, which yeah. And, and good luck with everything. I am a big fan and yeah. Thank you for letting me speak to you today.
Speaker 1 00:48:53 Thank you for listening. And again, a big thank you to Vanessa Taylor. You can follow her at bacon tribe on Twitter. You keep up with her newsletter at Nazar newsletter and remember to subscribe for updates. You can follow the drinking gourd on Twitter at drinking gourd mag. You can follow me at enabled sort of 26 and you can follow the main Dan Anthony Dunn on Twitter. The production team includes Micah Hughes, who you can follow on Twitter at Micah, a Hughes and Amir Kelly. And most importantly, the audio editor who does our post-production Sophie pots. Our music is by blue dot sessions. Be sure to subscribe or folding down on social media for upcoming episodes and more than me Dan selection of podcasts.
