Speaker 1 00:00:11 So one of the central themes of this podcast is access and inclusivity. How are people making certain spaces more accessible, how they're applying their own creative spirit to do so. How are people removing barriers to entry, how our community is growing around culture and cultural heritage and asking for creative solutions, we're looking for people to inspire you, but also we want to uplift the people who are doing that labor because it's intellectual labor, it's creative labor, and there's a need to acknowledge it and acknowledge how it can manifest as expertise today. We'll be looking at it through the perspective of literature and Arabic literature in particular. So welcome to knowledge and its producers a limited series from the Maidan produced by me and Amy <inaudible>. In each episode, we'll be talking to people who are at the forefront of knowledge production, typically away from the traditional educational power structures.
Speaker 1 00:01:06 We'll be talking to people who curate, who edit, who run research centers, who write and more. My field is Islamic studies, and we'll be talking to people who fit into the study of a snob and of the Muslim majority world. But that doesn't mean there'll be Muslim themselves or Arabic or Turkish or Persian. And it just means that we don't have perfect terms for describing this big intersecting world. Not yet. The goal is to get a wide variety of people talking about different ways of accessing history ideas and more to uplift the people we're interviewing. And again, to inspire you.
Speaker 1 00:01:45 Our guest today is Emma Lynx Kweli, the founding editor of the Arab lit website, Arab lit.org, which won a 2017 at London book fair literary translation initiative prize. She also publishes the experimental Arab lit quarterly magazine and is co-host of the Bullock podcast, her co translation of the middle grade novel. So at the end, Rowan was published in August, 2019 by university of Texas press and our translation of Sonia Nimitz wondrous journeys in strange lens was published in 2020 by interlink. She writes for a variety of popular publications. We're going to start by talking about Arab lit quarterly. We're going to be talking about everything from translation to K drama, to work-life balance, to the idea of guilty pleasures. So you're in for a ride. I haven't yet gotten my issue of the physical issue of Arab quarterly, but I did see the digital one. Uh, this is for the issue of the crime. It's amazing as usual. So congratulations. Thank you. Although I have relatively little to do with it, all credit goes to Husson our amazing art director and who often has ideas for, for what the content should be and all the contributors
Speaker 2 00:03:00 And translators.
Speaker 3 00:03:02 No, it's, it's stunning. And I know you guys have the cats issue in the making, how's that going?
Speaker 2 00:03:09 Yes. Well, it's, it's, it's a little, uh, you know, overwhelming sometimes because you want to feel like a sense of accomplishment after you get out, you know, cause we really, we put a lot into this crime issue, um, because we're trying to look at crime from, from the 10th century through the 13th, through the, how was, how were crime stories in 1940s, Egyptian magazines to contemporary crime, to different, you know, state crime, um, versus, you know, individual personal crime. So, and then it comes out and then yeah, the very next day it's moving on to the, to the next issue. And one of the really frustrating things about the cats issue is, is finding researchers who work on relationships between people and cats. Um, over time in, in the region. I, I really kind of struggled to find good research about that.
Speaker 3 00:04:09 Yeah. The history of animals, generally as a field, I don't think has something that has really been, it's not something that's really been probed. And then there are, of course, and I saw this recommended to you on Twitter, uh, Alan, <inaudible> the animal and Ottoman Egypt, which I don't think, I think you note it doesn't have as much about cats, but yeah, people, I mean, when an animal can't, because animals cannot document their own history other than leading traces. I think that, uh, we have to come up with really creative ways of getting them to see.
Speaker 2 00:04:40 Right. And I suppose, you know, probably generally people did not, for instance, write down what did they feed their cats? You know, there are of course cat poems and there are entries on cats in medieval sources. Um, but yeah, obviously they left far less of a trace than human beings. Um, but I'm, so I'm still looking for this. I'm still looking for the people who are researching the, you know, the changes and the shifts in ideas about people's relationships with, you know, specifically cats, but just, you know, I'm, I'm interested in this in, in general and um, it's always, um, surprising to find these, these spots in, in research that that are emptier than one would like them to be.
Speaker 3 00:05:29 It's funny, I think occasionally that, um, in the future and maybe 20 or 30 years, if you and Shaul are still doing this, you actually would have a lot of fodder to do another cat's issue because there is so much content on cats today. But, um, I mean just like right,
Speaker 2 00:05:47 People are definitely documenting their relationship with their cats a lot more now than, than they ever did previously. Yeah. And I'm going to, I'm trying to push a number of authors to write essays about their relationship with her, with her, you know, their sort of day to day relationship with their cat. Um, and I wish I could sort of travel back through time and pressure other writers throughout the centuries to write these essays. Sadly, I can't.
Speaker 3 00:06:15 Well, do you follow, are you big on Instagram? Do you like to look around for new accounts to follow?
Speaker 2 00:06:22 Yeah, although it, see most of them, I follow just based on what's recommended. So it's one big Bookstagram for me.
Speaker 3 00:06:30 I recently have gotten very much into foster cat foster kittens, specifically Instagram. I highly, I can send you if you like some videos, but I feel like now all of my professional correspondence is professional correspondence and then a good deal of cat videos. Even on Instagram, we messaging someone. And then I realized that like hats and I'm like, here's a video of a kitten hitting its sibling. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:06:57 One of the, one of the reasons I like the, um, the cats issue is because I think it sort of dissenters and surprises, um, people who read Arabic literature and translation generally, um, because so much of it is centered around ideas like exile and prison and Arab spring and, uh, and sort of big political issues, um, that I like, you know, saying, let's talk about cats and literature. Let's, let's, let's look at these other fun, unexpected aspects of literature. Let's come at it from a totally different direction. Um, and I think, yeah, cats are one of those things that, that you can attach to a work email and change the tone of it.
Speaker 3 00:07:46 I, uh, think that's actually one of the running themes of Arab quarterly generally. I mean, yeah, for example, if they're in the, I, there was that lovely essay by, I may have less that tackle this issue of exile. I believe the I, and it was a reference to that. Um, but, uh, Hikma, uh, that, uh, uh, saying, you know, that the monkey and the eye of its mother is a gazelle, um, and it was this wonderful essay about exile and it was, it was surprising in many different ways. I think you guys definitely the whole team mashallah, you guys integrate these different ways of inspiring wonder in the reader. I think, for example, for that issue in particular, um, there were emojis and sort of the design of it. And then of course you have all these lovely, delightful features built into the literary magazine, a literary journal. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:08:42 I think, uh, I think, uh, Hassan is, is at least as integral into the decisions on content as, as I am. And I think because I, so, you know, the form, the design of it, how it comes down on the page is, is also an extremely important part of what we, what we want to do with it. Um, and, and so he has, he has many ideas in how it looks that that come back to, to shape the kind of knowledge that we're producing.
Speaker 1 00:09:17 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but I mean, I also want to give you, and you can frown at me, um, your due credit, because I think you've integrated all these amazing different techniques, um, sort of the literary playlists, which by the way, I know people who use that technique now having seen it in your journal, um, as a pedagogical tool. And I think it's, it's so fanciful, but it's also such a productive way of thinking about literature.
Speaker 2 00:09:48 Yeah. I think, um, you know, the, the sort of traditional book review has fallen out of favor for many reasons, and many of them are good. Uh, you know, there's, there's the, there's the kind of book review that it's just telling you whether to buy it or not. And you could really just sum that up in a sentence. Yes. Get this book. No, don't get this book, um, you know, this kind of 600 word book review, that is just a summary of what's going on in the text. Um, I, so I think readers became bored of them. Um, you know, newspapers of course cut them out for all sorts of other reasons as well because advertisers weren't interested in them. But, um, so I think we were always looking for different ways to help people think about receive books, re-imagined books in, in ways that are, of course, of course each any essay about a book has to be entertaining to read as well. It's, it's not just a, you know, an assignment in order to tell you about what happened. It has to be a work of art also. Uh, and yeah, the playlists are, are, are, uh, have been a very lovely way to do that. No.
Speaker 1 00:11:04 And then of course, I mean, you have all these other ways of playing with the words, but, um, we can talk about a bit about that later. I sort of want to talk more about, in addition to talking about you as a person and highlighting God. Yes. You're giggling at me because he might, I want to hold you up on a pedestal because I admire you so much. I think everything you've done with this, with the, with the website, with the journal, I think, is a journal or Zen, or what is your preferred vocabulary for describing Arab? What quarterlies
Speaker 2 00:11:36 Anything except, um, blog like, um, blog I think has a sort of very negative, uh, connotation generally in intellectual academic spheres. And I have found myself in positions sort where I felt shame for that word. So any other word is good with me? I love the word Xen. Actually. I was so excited about zenes when I was a teenager in my early twenties, I made photocopied zenes so that's good. That word is good with me.
Speaker 3 00:12:09 I also don't like the word blog because it's the sort of thing that someone does on tumble, like the, the associations that a lot of academics. And I think a lot of the public has, if you're not sort of more, if you don't live half of your life on Twitter, if it's not your water cooler, you assume that a blog is something you write and no one reads. Whereas I, I don't know. I assume that Arab lit and is one of the more it's an institution. That's how I think of it in my mind, it's, it's making all of the moves in Arabic literature and translation, and it of course has an impact on Arabic literature and Arabic as well. I think according to my humble opinion, um, so I want to ask it, it makes sense to me, if you
[email protected] and then Arab, like quarterly and everything that comes with it, including all the nice swag, which I need to sit down and make an order. And like, I highly encourage that everyone go to your store and support you, but also get themselves something pretty. It's where a bunch of my presents this year for different birthdays are coming from. Um, so tell me about sort of how the natural outgrowth of these projects sort of formed because it makes sense, I think, to create something physical out of the digital, even though we often think about it in the opposite direction. Um, right. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 00:13:27 Well, the digital is just so easy to begin, right? So the digital began because I was reading a book and I, I wanted to write about it immediately. And, and my thing with things that I published previous to, to opening the blog, you know, I write an essay and I submit it to a bunch of magazines and then you wait for a hundred years to hear about it from the magazine, and then they publish it in their print issue and whatever a hundred people read it and you never know about it. It just seems so distant to me. And so initially I was reading a book and I just wanted to discuss it, write about it right then in the moment. So I just opened a word press blog that day, and probably nothing would have come with a bit, but, um, <inaudible> somehow Googled and found it and he left little encouraging words in the comments.
Speaker 2 00:14:21 And then, um, and then I kept writing and, uh, then Ursula and Sonder or one of them found it somehow Googling, I don't know. Um, and then they wrote about it in the Arabic text and I think it, it, um, there was a necessary point of contact that wasn't happening, uh, uh, Arabic translators in different, at different institutions who were, uh, on their own didn't know what each other were doing. People didn't, there was sort of no central place in, in the field at all, where information was being shared. Um, so it became a hub. So the its first iteration was at, as this sort of digital hub of, of sharing information about what's going on. Um, and then as more things started turning into essays, uh, I, you know, I began to think, I, I would like to have a place for experiment. I would like to have a place where we, we wall things off and we, we can pay people for a certain amount of fork, uh, because you know, people can of course set aside more time when they know that they're going to be paid for something.
Speaker 2 00:15:32 Um, I would like to make something it's an object I would like to make something, uh, you know, that's, that's beautiful that has all these different pieces together. And because I'm always, um, a little bit too impetuous about everything, I basically put up a survey and I said, Hey, do you guys want me to do a magazine? And, um, everybody, except Adam Tottenham said yes. And he said, uh, Marsha, why do you need to take on one more project? Um, and I said, you know, because I want to add them. Um, you know, so I, I think out of this hub of connections, uh, came the podcast and came, you know, the ability for me to go to different book fairs and, and talk to different people and, and help make these kinds of connections and then the print magazine. Um, and, and I think, you know, I, uh, I, you know, it's, I think it all comes from these connections, uh, uh, from being able to put people in, in contact with each other in juxtaposition, to be able to help people see things differently because people in the, particularly in literature and translation, uh, can get very, uh, in a bubble working by themselves in their office, in their home, uh, they know their colleagues, but they don't, they don't necessarily see what's going on beyond that.
Speaker 2 00:17:06 And Arabic literary translation had in some ways become also insulated from other literary translations. I did, you know, it, it was generally less experimental. It was generally less fun than some of the other
Speaker 4 00:17:23 Translation projects going on out there, which were more loose and less sort of academic and, you know, you know, sort of reading the crib notes of this classic piece rather than trying to experience what it might've been like, or look at it from different points of view. Uh, so yeah, so the print magazine, oddly. Yes. So I use a retro form in order to try and experimental things.
Speaker 3 00:17:51 I mean, I always wonder whether or not this is just me loving material history and material culture, and sort of fetishizing objects. But I think it's very, I think there is a fatigue of online content. We're inundated with it all the time. We live so much of our lives online. And then we also, I mean, so much of us deal with texts online all the time. It's just nice to have a physical object, but also just the visual, like so much of, I mean, I, I'm not going to poopoo books that don't have pictures in them. Those books are the majority of what we read. They're all right. But, uh, I think that having something that's so fanciful, and so, I mean, it's just such, it's, it makes you think differently, the texts as well. Right.
Speaker 4 00:18:43 It's so the other thing about online is that it was so easy to lose things. So like Shokat would send me an email saying, where was that piece you wrote about Michael Cooperson? I can't find it I've been, I've been searching for the last 20 minutes. I start searching. I'm like, I remember doing that piece, where is it? What did I call it? Um, so, you know, online is also a femoral in this way. Um, whereas yes, if you have it as an object, it, it's funny, you know, you, you think, well, in some ways online is forever, of course. Um, but if you have this, this object, I can sort of hold it in my hands and see the full shape of it.
Speaker 3 00:19:21 Um, I, I, it just, it influences how you engage with it. I think it definitely changes your posture. It changes, um, like feeling paper. I think it just makes me think a lot more of the intentionality. Like I think when everyone, I think one of the problems with the word blog or website or all these digital formats is that people assume that there's no labor behind it. And me and you both know that editing content to go online is really, really hard. And the formatting is hard, but with a physical object, because like there's a physical manifestation of labor right there. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:19:58 Right. Yeah. No people, I mean, I, myself included, uh, take a printed object more seriously. So it's it. Yeah. It's a different relationship with your reader. You, you are making a difference there. They have a different expectation of you and you have a different expectation of them. If I have a typo on the website. I mean, in fact if I don't have a typo any given day, no. I mean, if I have a typo on the website, I really, Oh, you know, that's another day I will go in and fix it right now. And I'm very sorry, but, um, but yes, no, the printed object we read and reread and reread and reread and reread because there is, yeah, there's a different expectation of something you're holding in your hand.
Speaker 3 00:20:44 I think a lot of that expectation actually does pass on the PDF too, because that is how in the EPUB versions, because there is this, there's another expectation for something that's so carefully formatted like that, that it is going to mimic some element of the object versus a website. But actually I do want to talk about the website because I think the website itself, no one would look at that and assume, as I said earlier, that, you know, there's no work behind it just because you put up so much content, I get like, so I'm signed up on WordPress to receive updates and it not a day goes by where I don't receive at least one update from your site. And I think that's a credit to you and your work ethic, which I want to speak about. And I want to celebrate, I mean, just how creative you are. I think, um,
Speaker 2 00:21:35 There's like a, a strange guilt attached to it now as well. Like, Oh my God, if I, you know, if I didn't don't have a, I don't have a post in for tomorrow, like the, the sky might fall,
Speaker 3 00:21:46 Well, I don't think the sky might fall. I think, I mean, these things about like, okay, let's talk about work life or as you've put it elsewhere, worklet balance, um, uh, I'll link to that episode of bullet. Um, but, uh, there is this expo. I mean, I think as we all, we, especially during these days in the middle of the pandemic, we know that mental health is really important on that working 24 seven and workaholic cultures are out of this sort of capitalistic impulse and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I think to some extent, there's that also divorces the fact that you have a community that you are a member of and that you want to serve them, but also the creative impulse that some people have, it doesn't quite fit that framework, but there is a need for balance, like, like all these things have to be considered, so,
Speaker 2 00:22:44 Right. Yes, actually. So, um, my desire, no need slash guilt, whatever we want to call it to continually produce things for this community is based on being a part of this community. So I would say it's my most positive guilt, um, uh, you know, other things where I feel the need to edit, take on one more editing project, uh, take on one more publishing consulting gig. One more, this one more that, you know, that's, that's driven by the fear of a marginalized sort of workforce without, you know, health insurance, you know, the precarity of, of being a freelancer in this position. Um, though those things I, I wish I had a better balance for, and I'm not exactly sure how to do it in the field that I've carved out for myself. Of course, I didn't, I don't, nobody asked me to work in this field. I, I came in and habited this space. So to a certain extent, I sort of have to, you know, I've made my bed and here it is. Um, but I do like the, the feeling of responsibility toward this community that I have created an expectation that I will, um, read people's work, edited, um, bring it out on the website, make these connections and that I live up to that in which I don't always see. No. Okay. So there are probably some emails in my inbox that I need to see to,
Speaker 3 00:24:25 Well, how do you approach balancing and what sort of philosophy or,
Speaker 2 00:24:33 I mean, during this pandemic, it has been very hard. I saw something on Twitter that really applies to me, uh, used to work from home. And now I live at work, um, because there was, you know, I used to take, you know, a weekend day to surf, which is a wonderful way to just clear up everything else out of your brain. Cause you, well, at least if you're as, as novice at, as I am, you really need to focus on staying up on the board. Um, but with everything shut down, it really I've really just been working around the clock lately. So I, you really should not ever look to me for advice about pallets.
Speaker 3 00:25:16 Well, let's talk about surfing for a second because that's actually a completely different side of you that none of us get to see on Twitter and on the blog. And why are you not starting like a surfing? And I'm sure there's a surfing community on Instagram or at least, well, we have geared towards production.
Speaker 2 00:25:37 No, but surfing is my space where I don't produce anything. Surfing is my space where I am. So that's why it's my escape.
Speaker 3 00:25:45 Who's who taught, who got you into surfing or did you get into yourself or,
Speaker 2 00:25:49 Uh, John Iskander who, uh, does language for the us state department and was based here in Morocco. Uh, he is from California maybe. And so he started surfing first and then he must've invited us along. And I absolutely love it because, because it is this, um, because it's a nonproductive space, it's just, you go up and you do the same action over and over again, you go out, you get up on your board, you ride it for a little while, then you fall off, you tumble on your head, whatever it's, uh, it's wonderfully mind glaring. I have thought about, you know, if I were a poet and I would write an ode to surfing, but, um, I'm not a poet. So
Speaker 3 00:26:41 That's the beauty of food too, that you eat the product and then it's gone. And unless you document it, there's a product like you have to cook or you have to produce food, but there are these different elements to many things that we do that we should just do, because we want to, I mean, that's like one of the problems I find with, um, media consumption is that sometimes I feel like media consumption is homework. Like there is the need to have an opinion and there's the need.
Speaker 4 00:27:09 Yeah. I think, yeah, you can really infect yourself, I think, with the need to produce in every sphere of your life. I think that in the first year that I was parent, I produced a lot of food. I was so focused on like producing photographs of my son and like producing something out of this moment rather than just sitting there and being in this moment, um, which hopefully I have kind of shifted in that direction.
Speaker 3 00:27:36 Are the other two kids jealous that there aren't as many photos of them?
Speaker 4 00:27:40 Oh no. Their father takes lots of photos. There's no, there's no shortage of photos. Um, but yes, I, I don't, I don't take pictures of food or, you know, I just see, you know, you can, you see? And I really like appreciate actually a lot of the work that people put into sharing their food production on the internet, because it teaches me a lot about other people's food. Um, but you know, I like to have things where I am a complete novice at it and I just do it because I like it.
Speaker 3 00:28:11 I think there's something freeing about having no expectations on oneself or something,
Speaker 4 00:28:16 Right? Yes, actually. So some of the people I serve with take lessons and they're intent on improving and there was going to be a competition of different levels. But I said, actually, no, I think I want to be a beginning surfer forever. I'm happy with exactly the level of terrible surfing I do right now. What's your favorite part of that? Oh God, I don't know. Like the moment you're up, you get up on the board. Maybe it's, I'm still like in love with the fact that I can, um, I think, you know, with a bicycle, there was maybe that moment, that first moment, when you realize you could stay up on the bike and keep pedaling and you kept going, but then you know, every other time now, if I get on a bicycle, it's pretty normal. Yes. I can do it without managing to fall. But so far every time I get up on the board, I am still amazed. There I am. I'm standing up, I'm surfing, I'm moving around. It's brilliant.
Speaker 3 00:29:15 I mean, it's also just this, like, it's not a thing it's interesting to me because surfing's may have always wanted to try, but I've never lived near a body of water. That's big enough, but I am able to ski because, um, I don't know why, but there are lots of different reasons why we got into skiing as a family. Um, and what I enjoy about it is the sheer absurdity of it. Like people use this, a form of transportation and now it's a sport and it's really fun to go. It feels like a Mario kart game. Like I'm just like zooming along and I'm not very good at it. And it's the same. My brother's already focused on technique, but like, I just like zooming on a Hill. It's fun.
Speaker 4 00:29:57 Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm definitely not focused. A lot of the people I surf with are improving their technique, but, and you know, occasionally the guy will shout out to me. No, you're supposed to put your back foot like this. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. My back foot, whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:30:15 The impulse of other people to make them conform to other their way of being some time. Um, okay. So I actually, I have a question for you and it's a bit of a plea for advice as well, because I also deal with like text and like written things all day and it broke the relationship with reading. I had the hardest time reading it for the longest time. I, I couldn't read in certain languages for fun, mostly English, because I was just like consuming badly written English all day. And I recently got back into it. It was really hard. It was a lot of reading, certain things that I enjoy, like good, nutritious writing, um, beautiful writing for, for just no purpose whatsoever because I wanted to. And I'm always curious how people who professionally deal with words and writing things deal with, with, with the written word. Do, do you, I feel like you still love books though and reading. Okay.
Speaker 4 00:31:20 Yes. But I think this is absolutely something that generally afflicts people who work in academia with literature and people who review professionally. And I, I have had moments where I was like, you know, just sick of sick of reading so many bad things in a row. Um, because you know, if, if texts are assigned to you, you can end up as an academia. You can end up reading several books in a row that you really did not enjoy. Um, so I always set aside time for what I call guilty pleasure reading. And of course, you know, some, some people don't understand why I cool the books. Um, uh, you know, why I call it guilty, pleasure reading when it, you know, it wouldn't be their sort of guilty pleasure. But what I mean is sort of nonprofessional reading that I'm reading simply for the delight of it. And then also I found that I need to kind of respect not just old genres, which I kind of respect anyway, like if I want to read a Y Y a fantasy novel, and that's what my Arabic reading is right now, nobody is going to make me feel bad about it. But, but also all different methods of, of taking that in. So me reading
Speaker 2 00:32:40 An audio book is reading a book. Um, any different method of me reading a graphic novel is, is me reading a book, come on. Um, so, you know, I just like try to keep it as mixed and varied as possible because I know, you know, if you eat carrots every day, or if you eat whatever, a cheese sandwich, every meal for every day, it's certain point you're going to be like, I hate food. Food is awful, but it's not food. It's the sort of sameness of it. Um, so I think, you know, to stay in love with reading, you need to keep a variety of things in front of you, or at least that's how it's necessary to me.
Speaker 3 00:33:24 Yeah. I fundamentally disagree with the notion that all words need to be read. I really, one of the sort of breakthroughs that I had a couple of years ago with that podcasts were a form of literary production. I think it was when I began recording things. And at the end, figuring I began to realize how much work it took to get, especially a scripted podcasts done. Um, it's also just about consuming ideas. I feel like you're, you're consuming all these different ideas and you're engaging with people in all these different ways. Um, and I, I enjoy that about it. And also there's a craft to the YouTube video and the way it's composed and all that. I mean, that, that also thinking about like the scenes of something is also maybe getting it's also, it takes away from some of that enjoyment sometimes. But yeah,
Speaker 2 00:34:13 I think to me it's so important not to, even though I say guilty pleasure as if I'm feeling guilty about it, I'm not, um, you know, open up all kinds of different spaces for yourself to enjoy knowledge and entertainment production in all these different ways. I love audio books. Um, as, as some people know, that's my secret dream. I want to be an audio book reader. Um, and yeah, I, I love listening a lot. I love reading. I love feeling the paper, um, reading different genres. I love reading works that are written for children. If they're, if they're beautifully written, they're beautifully written. Um, I I've gotten pushback from a number of academics when I suggest, uh, why a novels particularly okay. If their, if their students are beginning readers in Arabic, there's I just don't see the shame in, in giving them a Hawaii novel in Arabic. Um, but you know, I often get the, well, these are adults there. They should be reading adult books. Um, I, I like children's books. I like adult books. I like philosophy. And I like laughing at ridiculous things.
Speaker 3 00:35:34 Okay. So we've talked about books and we've talked about audio, but I'm really curious, um, a complete aside of a question, do you like, what television do you like? Do you like television as a medium and visual production? Like animate, not animated, but visual production that moves the motion,
Speaker 2 00:35:55 Moving pictures I've heard of them. Um, yes I do. I like anything that tells a story. Well, um, uh, you know, I, I think, you know, there's always some form of entertainment or media that we look down on that we say is not as serious. So, you know, watching TV is not as serious as reading books or, uh, you know, previous, you know, reading fiction was not as serious as reading non-fiction. Um, but yeah, I, I love all of them. And now recently I've been watching a lot of K drama. I know that some people will make fun of me for that, but it's Dean of hammerheads folds. She got me into it. So blame her
Speaker 3 00:36:42 For everything else. Lovely that she brings into the world since we mentioned graphic novels. Um, it's funny. I'm really into Japanese, not Japanese, sorry, Korean horror right now. Um, it's just, it's so Imad, it's so much fun to watch.
Speaker 2 00:37:01 I think one of the things I really like about this spate of K drama that I'm watching is yeah, there, there's such like a different attitude towards television and there's so many noble morals that I'm in ingesting that I really, you know, you know, whatever. Definitely, if you found a noble moral in an, in an American show, you would, I don't know what your reaction would be. You might pass out, but, um, it's like, it's a different ASP attitude towards storytelling. So I guess, um, the thing about my TV consumption is that it's similar to my literary consumption and that I'm always interested in what are other, what are other cultures, what are other unfamiliar languages? How are they producing, um, narratives in what different ways? Um, and then how are they being translated? How are they coming to me? And, you know, looking at the terrible Netflix, um, subtitles to some of the, uh, the shows, but enjoying them, nonetheless enjoying the terrible translations.
Speaker 3 00:38:10 When I lived in Jordan for a year, they broadcast boys over flowers, which I believe is available on Netflix, actually, I'm in false hot. And it's, it's one of these things where it's like watching one of these older Arab historical dramas that they serialized during a normal line, but you're watching it. And it's about a bunch of teenagers living me roughly 10 years ago in Korea. So it's the styles of that and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 00:38:36 And they're speaking, what's hot and it's entertaining and it's winding and they're really long. And it's, it's, it's a fun, intertextual thing to do, uh, if you want intellectualize like that. Um, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:38:48 No, I, sometimes I sometimes like to, yeah, watch a Korean show with the subtitles and fossa, you know, like just like mix it up, be crazy. I, I, yeah, these, these kinds of intersections are always wonderful. Um, uh, there was a, um, a Q and a, a few days ago on, on AeroBlade about the intersections of classical Chinese and classical Arabic literatures, which is a topic I'm endlessly. I mean, I'm actually any era of the intersections of Arabic and Chinese and Chinese literatures. Um, I'm in, I'm, I'm absolutely wrapped with, with how these connections are the same and different from connections between English, literatures and French literatures and, and other world literatures. Um, what, uh, how influence moved through, um, and, and how, um, a dub. And I think when is the word, I think if I'm not getting it wrong, um, in, in Chinese how they were similar and of course different,
Speaker 1 00:40:00 I also just enjoy the fact that, you know, there's a market for these things beyond where they come from, and it's a weird moment of engagement. They're all these different things that could be happening in these engagements. Um, and you can't control for them as a creator, or even as an audience member. You can't control how other people in your, in your control of my roommate was thinking about this Korean drama that we were watching, but it's like, I don't know. It's just one of these moments that it's, it's almost like you're being in a free-fall and you can just enjoy. And I don't know, I do think that, um, I do worry that my habits are changing in a way that is, is not good, but I also don't, I don't believe in guilty anyway, that's going off into meandering direction. Um, so one thing you expertly do, and you referenced this earlier, because I do think actually you should be, if, if someone needs to pick you up and become your agent for audio book production, because people comment all the time, um, on your voice and the fact that you have a good voice for generation Michelin, that you do an excellent job on the podcast you produce with salt.
Speaker 2 00:41:11 Well, I, I, you know, I think what I need to just start recording some people's books for free and see how it goes. I, you know, I, I, it's just, it takes a lot of time to sit down and read out somebody's book. Um, and, you know, without any errors in that chapter, but you were talking about this, um, in the ways in which things are shifting. And sometimes what I, you know, there's this, uh, if you didn't spend so much time on Twitter, you would have produced a book by now. And I can see the, uh, uh, legitimacy in this argument of if I want to succeed in my field, if I want to sort of, I don't know, ascend to great Heights in my, whatever. Yeah. I should not be on do on Twitter and then producing a magazine. And then I should focus on a thing.
Speaker 2 00:42:05 And there's a, like a great deal of not, maybe not a great deal, but I feel that shame around this multitasking of flipping windows of not focusing on a single thing, you know, of course I do sit down with a book and read it for several hours in a row, but I can also scroll through 600 different tabs, but, but Twitter is also an excellent point among all the other things. It is an excellent point of not just knowledge, production, but, uh, of, of contention and discussion, um, of opening up new issues, not always in the best possible way, but, uh, I have learned amazing things on, through these com these micro conversations. And, and if this is, if this is the way we're going, then here we are. Um, I'm on the I'm on the boat.
Speaker 1 00:43:02 I also, I mean, part of the reason I wanted to do this podcast is because I feel that there are different ways in which people work. And I find the way people work fascinating. Like I think that people's processes are interesting. And I don't say that to like, say that we should all be working 24 seven and producing. I come from this like school of thought where I think staring into space for five hours is a productive use is a quote unquote productive use of one's time, rather a good use of one's time. But I think that I think people work in different ways. And I like thinking about the way people work, just because I learned so much more about them. It's kind of like going home to meet your friends, family, and being like, Oh, so that's where that my friend got this, you know, passion for this, or that's where my friend got this, like way they, the specific way they roll their eyes.
Speaker 1 00:43:53 And I learned so much about how my friends and colleagues function, which gets me to another thing. I think that Twitter may make this huge, massive jump from the word colleague, if you'll bear with me, I think Twitter is also this. I mean, I'm at you on Twitter. I think we all meet our, we, we, we, he, we find new cloud collaborative partners on Twitter all the time. You promote your work brilliantly through Twitter. I mean, let me just open to your account. So the, you had just issued the new two or three weeks ago, two weeks ago, the new issue of Arab quarterly out, and it's pinned to the top of your page. And people can, if they visit your page, they can get a copy or subscribe, or if they're just coming across you for the first time, they can learn all these different things about Arab lit, um, in translation and all these opportunities by going through your page. Um, and there are horrible things about it. Like when people decide they want to mansplain to you, um, them being of any gender affiliation, of course, but there's also this wonderful capacity for, I think, like you said, micro conversations, and I think I, I, you, you use Twitter tremendously. Well,
Speaker 2 00:45:09 Yeah, I guess I have met the, almost the entirety of the people who are my colleagues in this endeavor, um, over some, either through the comments of the blog, or much more likely through Twitter, um, or some other form of social media. And so then these become people I have now met in person and been on panels with and done projects with, uh, yeah, because otherwise I do work entirely in a solo space. So these offer spaces for encounter that I'm not sure I would otherwise have had access to.
Speaker 1 00:45:52 Mm. I mean, I think especially in a world where war also far drift, right? Like we all, I mean, why should you just have to work with the people who live in your neighborhood or go to the same institution you do, or, I mean, and also your, what you're doing is really this it's this community, but it's also this act of service. I think so many people have told me that they began reading Arabic literature and translation because they Googled something and they came across your blog. Um, and this was in the early days as well. And not sort of speaking of today when it's this encyclopedic thing that I can't even explain in a single word, but back when it was only you editing it and writing for it. And I mean, even then you, you produced all this different content and an amazing pace. You always have this capacity to create, not to produce, but to create, um,
Speaker 2 00:46:49 Yeah, I guess the thing is, is that it always feels like there's an audience who cares about it. And I guess as long as there's an audience who cares about it, I will continue to be there. And that this is the part that I really enjoy is, um, uh, finding somebody who wants to develop their translation skills and helping them, finding somebody who wants to make connections with people, working in a different sphere or publishers or whatever. And this really matters to me to be able to help people make these connections.
Speaker 1 00:47:25 Okay. So tell me more about the podcast. That's a very different way in which you create and you innovate, and you also have a partner we work with on that who you actually converse with and exchange idea is, and, and we get to see you think together, which is wonderful.
Speaker 2 00:47:43 Yeah. So we did. So we started it out because here we were both living in robot and, um, and she already had equipment cause, uh, Ursula Lindsay, my, my cohost sometimes did radio that we're both interested in, in many of the same texts and questions and, and reading some of the same things. So it started out as a conversation and then as it developed, um, I, you know, I think as these things gain steam, there's sort of a process, an internal process of improvement that just sort of happens. Um, you know, you, you realize, no, we don't want to talk about 15 separate issues on each show. We need to, to plan them. There was a moment when we were going to plan them each out in the way that you would produce an NPO an hour long NPR episode, um, you know, to create this sort of long bibliography beforehand, do intense research, have specific guests for each segment.
Speaker 2 00:48:47 Um, and then, you know, to do that, not being funded, I think in the end seemed a bit much, but I think there is a lot produced in, in these conversations. They're, they're semi formalized conversations. Um, we do have guests on, we will have a guest on the next episode, which we're recording tomorrow. Um, and you know, we sort of present ourselves with a semi-structured, uh, set up in which, you know, we've read certain texts together and then we are yeah. Thinking through these things aloud. So some of it will be more scintillating than other parts, presumably. Um, but that something new really comes out of it that we didn't expect. So, because it's not scripted because we had considered scripting as well, because it's unscripted, there's, there are moments where we surprise ourselves, which is the fun part, I guess,
Speaker 1 00:49:54 How has the podcast and receipt,
Speaker 2 00:49:57 How was the podcast? The podcast is a little bit more difficult to gauge than, um, than the website because people don't really, people am, it's much more of a relationship that you don't see as much, or at least this is how it's been for me. So there are people who feel that they know me because they listen to my voice while they're doing their dishes or going in their car, but they don't talk back in my experience as much as they do, uh, with
Speaker 4 00:50:28 Log or with, with Twitter. It's so easy to talk back. Um, uh, so it, it is like a little bit, you know, I think to me, I know a little bit less about how people perceive, unless I, you know, unless it's, you know, eman Russell, I know what she thinks of the episode we did about her book. Um, but people reach out less, uh, I think two podcasters and they do to people whose writing that they've read.
Speaker 1 00:51:01 Yeah. I feel like people just send me a message and I got sent nothing, any message. They bring it up at the end of a conversation when I'm like, and I'm when I'm least expecting it. And I think it's often weird when they, I don't know if you've ever had this experience. Someone looked at me and said, it's weird because I know what your voice sounds like, but it's coming out of your face now.
Speaker 4 00:51:23 Right, right, right. Yeah. No, there, for so many years when I would meet someone, they're like, you're real. Yes. I am. I'm not simply a conglomeration of words and sounds, I'm a full person
Speaker 1 00:51:39 With likes and interests and all these other things that make you a full person that aren't related to the podcasts. Right.
Speaker 4 00:51:46 Um, but then, but then, yeah, but I, uh, to some extent, you know, whatever, I'm, it's a crafted identity. Obviously what I post about on Twitter is all about 99% about Arabic literature. I do think about other things, you know, I have food food. Yes, exactly. I occasionally look out the window, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 00:52:09 And you go on walks and you engage with people in your life. Then you do all the normal people things, but people don't assume with, with personalities, but I think you actually handled being a personality very well. I think the reason why your voice is so successful on Twitter, for example, on the blog is that you have a personal voice. And I think that makes people think that they know you. Um, and I, I don't mean to say that you're this sort of, uh, uh, and I don't mean to shame them, but this sort of Instagram influencer or YouTube influencer, um, where again, because there's that visual aspect, people assume that they have entry to all these different points of your life. And I do think there's a craft to that. I don't, I don't, I'm trying not to debate influencers. I think that there's craft to that and that has a whole other conversation try to nuance things and then it goes out, it gets out of control.
Speaker 1 00:53:00 Um, but I think that you're very, your voice is very personal, even though I think, um, it's Arab lit, that's your handle, right? It's not your name, but your name is your profile name. I think people, I mean, so it functions as both, but you sort of have cracked the code, I think for Twitter engagement. Um, and, and for blog engagement and for your Instagram, and that it has a personal voice, it's not just the website or an institution or the journal. It's, it's someone who cares about their things and these things, the institution takes on its own personality and soul and your voice gets that to it.
Speaker 2 00:53:42 Yeah. Well, I don't know about any of that, but one of the things I, I really like about, um, being on Twitter and having that kind of interaction is, is I don't see, I'm sure many people have read this Harper's letter, but I, I like being called out. Okay. I like being held to account about things. I like being told that I screwed up something. Um, I like having those conversations, even if there is, of course they have to be uncomfortable because otherwise I, you know, I wouldn't need them. Um, I think that's a wonderful thing about Twitter. I have personally never been, I mean, other than yes, of course, yeah. Mansplaining occurs, but I have never experienced the bad side of ha you know, somebody of being piled on for, for something I didn't deserve. I've only been, been, uh, addressed for things that I, you know, have reconsidered after, after conversation. Um, so I, I really appreciate that aspect of, of people. You know, if you read a piece in a magazine and it is a print magazine, you know, you CA you can fume about it. You can't, you can of course write a letter to the editor, but there's less of that instant you screwed up. And I like that so much about Twitter.
Speaker 2 00:55:18 So what,
Speaker 1 00:55:19 Where do you see this? I mean, you have, as you said earlier, and you implied, you have ideas all the time, and you're clearly as I have lavished praise upon you, this extremely creative individual whose work elevates others. And I think that's part of what I want to celebrate is people who elevate other people. Um, and I, and, and you, you highlight all these different things, your sensitivity to the fact that there are not Arabic languages in the region and that many of the people that these literatures cover are multi-lingual. And, and, and yeah, I just, I think you're doing a wonderful job. Can I ask a nasty question and ask where you see Arab lit in the coming years? What are your hopes and dreams for it?
Speaker 2 00:56:03 Yeah, it's like a job interview question. Um, in five years I will be the most productive employee in the company. Um, well, you know, I can just tell you about things that I'm excited about right. In the moment. Um, uh, I, I really enjoyed this Arabic translation challenge that I have to give Kevin blank and ship, and <inaudible> Robin Mosher, those guys, all the credit for, for starting that community and, and Kevin for, for bringing it then to Arab lit for us to try and bring it to a different space. And then I would like to, uh, so now we're taking a break from it. And then I would like to think about other ways that, that Arabic translation challenge and, and thinking of it. Yeah, not as a contest of different ways, we can translate these largely poetic texts, but as a, as a personal challenge, as a point of interest as a, as a fun engagement.
Speaker 2 00:57:10 So where can we bring that next? You know, are there ways we can bring it into classrooms or the ways we can bring it into events? Are there ways we can bring it, um, to out to more translators? What do, what do we do with it next? And I think, uh, Kevin and I will have a conversation about that. And then I just, I'm excited about, uh, the magazine and, um, I want to try and, um, need to find a couple more dollars for it because I want to bring on more people so that we can, um, so that there's more like, you know, push and shove and more and more ideas, um, uh, outside of, you know, whatever, what I think is a good idea. Um, so finding, uh, you know, I don't know, I don't know how academics do this. I have literally no idea how to find funding other than what I've done so far as to just ask readers, Hey, would you like to donate a couple bucks to me? Yes. Fine. Okay, great. Um, so, you know, to professionalize the magazine a little bit to, so that I can include more people in the editing process in a way that doesn't feel bad or wrong, or exploitative to me so that we are able to pay people for their time. Um,
Speaker 1 00:58:36 I would like to everyone to note that if they go to patrion.com and look up to Kaylee and editors, they will find a way to support the magazine and that there are tears, and you will get little things for,
Speaker 2 00:58:50 For the Ford foundation or whatever, and want to just give me money. You can do that too.
Speaker 1 00:58:55 She will also take donations from the core foundation and maybe from private individuals who don't want to any creative engagement with the project itself, angel funders is what they call them, angel investors, angel investors, and angel investors out there. Well, of course, festival, and we're so excited with the cats issue, which hopefully this will come out right before that. So we'll hopefully give it a little boost
Speaker 1 00:59:27 For listening. And again, a big thank you to marshaling squarely. You can follow her at M links Qualia on Twitter. You can keep up with her website, Arab lit.org and subscribe for updates as well as support the journal slash Xen. AeroBlade quarterly. You can follow Arab lit on Twitter, on the block podcast too, which is co-hosted by Marsha and Ursula. Lindsey. You can follow me at anyone sort of 26, and you can follow them way down at the main, down on Twitter. The production team includes Micah Hughes and <inaudible>, you can follow Micah Micah, a Hughes. Our music is by blue dot sessions. Be sure to subscribe or follow the me down on social media for upcoming episodes and more than me, Dan selection of podcasts.
