Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 <inaudible> okay.
Speaker 1 00:00:09 So we're going to be tackling two heavy topics today. They're marginally different. So bear with me. The first is belief when it intersects with your research as a Muslim, whose career is basically a thumb and often it's also being Muslim. I can testify that it's a hard line to walk. I often intentionally mentioned that the liturgy and prayer books I work on as an academic, as a researcher, the stuff I'm publishing in academic journals. And I'm hoping to write about in a long form book that I use these books as a believer that I, I pray from them. I creep it into the footnotes, the conclusions of essays. I think I've tried to do it in part because I love my faith for all of its complexities. And also because I've had good role models, who've taught me why that's important. We're going to talk to one of those role models today. A dear friend of mine who knows what it is to walk between worlds who articulates belief. We're also going to, because it's the theme of the series, you know, talk about knowledge systems and how they're produced specifically library cataloging and how cataloguing should fit the knowledge system. It describes not the other way around. We shouldn't force the knowledge system to fit into a cataloging standard, especially if it was developed for another body of knowledge. I swear this unique combo will make sense in a second. Okay. Just bear with me until I introduce our deaths. <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:01:37 Welcome
Speaker 1 00:01:38 To knowledge and its producers a limited series from the may done produced by me and Amy Wood. In each episode, we'll be talking to people who are at the forefront of knowledge production, typically away from traditional educational power structures. We'll be talking to people who curate, who edit, who run research centers, who write and more. My field of study is Islamic studies and modern Arabic, intellectual and visual history. And we'll be talking to people who've been into the study to see them and the Muslim majority world. But that doesn't mean they'll be Muslim themselves, or that there'll be Arab or Turkish. It just means that we don't have perfect terms for describing this big intersecting world. Not yet. At least the goal is to get a wide variety of people talking about different ways of accessing history ideas and more to uplift the people we're interviewing and to inspire you.
Speaker 1 00:02:27 Our guest today is John through ed who's French and lives in Cairo. He's also a member of the Dominican order part of the Catholic church after a master's degree in theology and Coptic metrology. He graduated in teaching Arabic as a foreign language at the American university of Cairo, but the thesis titled emphatic sounds and educated. Kyrene Arabic 2006 and 2012. He completed a PhD thesis in the history of Arabic grammar in the Netherlands titled numerals and Arabic grammatical theory. He managed the 200 project, which ran from 2013 until 2016. The aim of which was the historical contextualization of the works of 200 authors of the Arab Islamic heritage. He served as director of the Dominican Institute for Oriental studies. Iddio for short in Cairo, between 2014 and 2020. Iddio includes a large library that is open to the public and has an unusual catalog. See, I told you, it makes sense.
Speaker 1 00:03:23 He currently studies a manuscript of <inaudible> that has never been edited. That's a grammatical text for those of you who aren't in the know or aren't obsessed with Arabic grammar. So we recorded this episode back when you could still spend time with people safely back in late 2013, when this podcast was just an idea and the Rome was my willing test subject. We were spending a lot of time together, professionally and socially. So I just asked him if he wanted to do it one day and he obliged. So you're about to hear quite a bit of the soundscape of Cairo Egypt in the background, as well as maybe the going ons of the library, where we recorded this because John's office had high walls and we were getting an echo. So we just went to the library. And the other part of the building during this podcast, we'll also hear some names, Luke neon, Sunni and originality, Emilio and Paul. Those are other brothers of the Dominican order who lived at IDEO at the time. They're my friends. So in some way, this is dedicated to them. Let's start with an easy question. What did you eat for breakfast today?
Speaker 2 00:04:22 Um, cake, uh, we had, um, we have a friend who spends one month in Egypt every year. He works in the garden and he's a retired, um, from universe and it cooks, um, fantastic Walnut apple cake. So I had that for breakfast.
Speaker 3 00:04:43 Is that a normal breakfast for a Catholic priest slash Dominican brother? Who also is the director of a research center?
Speaker 4 00:04:51 It's very much so. I like to,
Speaker 2 00:04:53 Um, I like to eat whatever is available yesterday. I had credits, you know, the, uh, like pancakes, uh, maybe the day before peanut butter. Like I eat whatever is there. I love to look at my favorite sport. My, you know, what I in life makes me live. What makes me wake up in the morning and go through the day and is adaptation. I love to adapt. So I adapt to, I mean, if I feel any problem, I'm like, okay, you're not adapting enough. So I opened the fridge in the morning and see what is that? And I eat it. I love to do this. I hate having a routine really, because I think I'm, fossilizing, I don't like for civilization. Like I like to the challenge of just set up something, is it hot? Is it cold? Is it, is there food? Is there not food? Is there water is not water? Is, is there something to do? What I like, I like to adapt. It's a sport.
Speaker 3 00:05:55 Is that what suits you to this? And I'm gonna ask you what this life is in a second, but do you think this is what suits you for this role that you play?
Speaker 2 00:06:04 No, I don't think so. There is different different styles. My predecessor would not do the same. You would not, it would have more like line. He would have, um, things that he likes and dislikes. Um, so he, I would adapt to what, to his style and he would have style. I know, you know, it's, I think it's perfect.
Speaker 3 00:06:26 Okay. So let's go with the foundational question that I think we do need to ask you because it's, when I think about what you do and the more time I spend with you, I have a difficult time pinpointing what you do, because you're so good at so many things. I say this as your friend, I can also be cruel to a, you know, this, but your role as the director of, in my head of Dominica and ATO the Dominican Institute for Oriental studies, that the full acronym, um, is quite multifaceted because you wear the academic hat. You also wear the librarian hat because your library is incredible. It's one of the best I think in the world, if not, I mean, in Egypt, if not the world for Islamic studies of any period, I mean, it's always an incredible collection. Um, but then you also, where of course the hat of being a member of this religious order, you're a religious, um, can you, that's me defining you. And then of course you have all these other skills. Of course, you're a novelist, you're a gymnast, you're a diver, you're all these nights, someone, someone the other day said that you're a fish in the water. I mean, like you were so many wonderful things, cat lover, you're, you're all these
Speaker 4 00:07:46 Things. Um, so
Speaker 3 00:07:50 What would you define if I was to ask you to dinner party? Who are you, what do you do for a living? Would you tell me?
Speaker 2 00:08:00 So, um, I would say I I'm, uh, French MOC trained as a teacher of Arabic and researcher in Arabic linguistics. Who's been appointed director of Islamics Institute for six years. I mean, three plus three. And then, uh, I love to adapt. I love to, I mean, Egypt, I don't figure to the desert and the red seat, I guess if I had been living, um, in Japan or in Peru, I would be loving, you know, tea ceremony and, and just adapt. And what makes me, my, my, my problem with the, what I think is behind your question about identity. What is, if I can try to define my identity? I think, I don't know yet what my identity is because let's imagine. Okay. I'm almost, let's say I'm 49. Yeah. So let's imagine, let's imagine that I would spend the next 20 years in China. What will I become?
Speaker 2 00:09:07 Who will I become? Um, and I cannot say yet. So I think our identity is in front of us, not behind us. So where I come from, I come from a small village in France, uh, from a Catholic background, um, lots of traveling and languages. This is what is behind lots of music. This is what is behind me, um, where I'm going, I'm going to more, uh, big cities, international, um, Islamic studies, Arabic language, most part, I was not such a, I was not doing any support when I was a kid, just some basketball, but little, I mean, not that much. So this is where I'm going now, where I will be in 20 years from now. I have no idea and no idea. If, if, for example, I'm appointed in Rome in the Dominican order enrollment to manage, for example, to coordinate, um, the studies at the level of the order, uh, then I would be traveling to different many places and try to figure it out, um, and organize the study programs for the products at the level of the world, which is very probable. I mean, this is something that can happen. Who will I become?
Speaker 3 00:10:25 So let's, let's look at the institutional for a moment, what, this is a Catholic research center, so to speak complete a minute and order, um, here in Egypt, it's been here for quite a long time, 17 years. Uh, it has an interesting relationship with, I think, a positive relationship with local Muslim religious institutions.
Speaker 5 00:10:48 So tell
Speaker 3 00:10:50 Me about the Institute, tell me about its history. And then I want to ask you about its goals.
Speaker 2 00:10:57 So the Institute was born out of the desire of a brother. Uh, <inaudible>, he's a French brother. He was a specialist, it was an archeologist and anthropologist. Anyway, specialist of the tribes in Arabic, in Arabia, he was knowing quite well, uh, dialect Arabic dialects, uh, of the Arabian peninsula. He was, uh, he did some exploration in the installer and in, uh, um, so we have his explorations of the peninsula. So he wanted, and he was living in Jerusalem in the biblical school. He wanted, uh, the Dominic in order to devote a number of brothers to the study of Islam. It was his secret passion. So he built this place and he did some lobbying with the Dominican order and with, uh, the Vatican, so that at some point the Vatican would ask the Dominicans to, um, to establish this statute. And it worked. So it was in 45, 19 45 that the Vatican asked this from the Dominicans and the Dominicans, the French Dominicans agreed.
Speaker 2 00:12:11 And they sent three brothers in this place that had been existing for almost 15 years, uh, before, um, physically here, he built it or the national son built the place. Um, and his mission was to build, um, a sister priori of Jerusalem for the archeological study. So he said, yes, but he did it with another purpose, which was the Islamic Institute. So he built a place as asked, but he was lobbying for something else at the same time. And so after world war two, three brothers came here, came here, one injection and two French, and they began to buy books and study Arabic and Islam. This is how it began.
Speaker 3 00:12:59 Um, I do, I mean, this is one of my favorite places in the entire world. I think I've said this multiple times often when you're not there. Um, I think it's a wonderful place. It's a great model for interfaith engagement. Um, I think the level of respect that you all paid to Islam speaking as a Muslim, just always makes me so in all of all of you, I think you're so well, unlike a lot of other research centers, you're so well integrated into Egyptian Egypt and community are right up the street from Alzheimer's. I mean, it literally is 15 minute walk, 20 minute walk. Um, and also when I sit in the library, which is open to the public for a very small fee for a year, um, it, the number of people and the diverse types, I mean, you don't necessarily have crowds coming in, which is fine with me because then it's nice and quiet, but the different types of people that you have come in through the doors is astounding. And the lectures, you run your attempts to have everything in Arabic. For example, like it, it just, I think you're able to accomplish what a lot of other research centers are not. And also the place it's physically beautiful. A woman who stayed here once told me, um, that she was amazed that a group of men was able to accomplish a feat of physical beauty. I mean, you have the garden, you have the architecture, everything's organized all these little design, like just touches. Yeah. She was like, I don't, I didn't think men were capable.
Speaker 3 00:14:28 This is good, but yeah, it's, it's a wonderful place when I find it just it's it's, it's, there's nothing else like it in the world and you all should be very proud. Okay. Um, okay. So when you took over, uh, you became director of the Institute, uh, six years ago, right? Five years ago. And this is your sixth year. Um, what has your sort of, what were you, what have your goals as director been?
Speaker 2 00:15:02 I don't think I had goals. Um, I think the, um, the Institute was accomplishing a transition from financial insecurity to financial security and this new security would enable us to focus more on research. You got donation, right? Yeah. And it was, uh, so my predecessor was spending most of his time looking for money. So he didn't have much time to focus on communication, um, defusing, uh, research. He was not, uh, he couldn't have some knowledge of dialect, but he would not be able to read the text in Arabic, uh, and not speak in Arabic and give a lecture in Arabic
Speaker 3 00:15:56 And wait, you've been fluent for quite a long time and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:15:58 I've been here for 25 years or, yeah, I've been for a long time. So depending on his abilities and the, and the necessities of the Institute was to find money and to, to, uh, secure, uh, finances of Institute. He was relying on the younger generation to do research, but he would not no research himself. And so he would spend lots of time looking for money. And, um, when I came and at the end of his term, uh, finances were secured by a big donation and good relations with an foundation in France that supports us. So I came in with lots of time because I would not spend time, lose time, looking for money. So lots of time and knowledge of Arabic. So quite naturally, um, I began to involve more into the Egyptian world of, uh, research, um, setting up corporations with, uh, other university with, um, uh, the Arabic manuscript institutes Institute.
Speaker 2 00:17:08 So, because I had time to do that, he didn't. So this wasn't a goal that I had. It was like I had all this time and knowledge of Arabic that enabled me to do this, um, which may makes it possible for us now to focus more on research and what I'm after six years, what I will be, um, handing down to the next generation would be, um, the possibility to teach because the masses, I mean the younger generation they want to teach, they want to, and I think the world needs more teaching. We need more formation. So I think, and I've been not so good at it. I didn't do it much. I'm a teacher myself, but I didn't do it much. Uh, we were focusing much more on, um, communication, making the Institute more known, especially in the Arab world. And I think we've, we've reached something nice, uh, with the help of the others, the website, the, the catalog systematic translate, uh, um, translation of everything in English and Arabic. So I think, um, I did a lot of work on communication and diffusing our research. Um, I think the next generation is ready now and willing to get more involved into teaching.
Speaker 3 00:18:31 What, how has research folded in to the goals of video? Like how does it function on a day-to-day basis? How, how big a part of your lives is it and how do you feature research?
Speaker 2 00:18:45 The, uh, maybe 10 years ago, 20 years ago, research was highly valued and, uh, as opposed to teaching as opposed to, uh, um, diffusing knowledge and, and reaching out. So the model that existed when I arrived here in 94 was we are scholars locked in our rooms. Uh, we live literally on a bunch of books and we spent eight hours a day reading and searching, and we publish in scientific journals and you have your own journal and we have our own. So this was the model. This was the, how, where they were living. They didn't have any money at the time. So there were, uh, sparing any, uh, every, uh, every penny to buy books. So they were literally eating canned food and potato. And when I arrived in 94, it was that way. Then my partner, Sesar tried to change this more into looking for money, so making so that we would live better.
Speaker 2 00:19:54 We would have a garden, we would have food, we would have cars, we would have, um, AC. And so the books were always a priority. But now with the mobile end that he succeeded in gathering, we would live better and we would have a better chances to do better research. And then I came and my priority because I had time to do it. As I said, my priority was to make our research known, to spread it more, to let people know the existence of this Institute. Um, um, my predecessor built the new library, which gave us more visibility. So people began to began to come here, but they would not find activities in Arabic. Everything was still in French at that time. So 2002 and new building was built. Everything was still in French. People would know us eventually come to use the books, but they would not engage with us much. Um, there were no seminar, there was no, uh, Arabic website that was no, we would not publish Arabic articles would not have lectures and conferences. So this is what I did because I was able to, when I, um, to cover, uh, direction in 2014. So my practice is always between 2002 and 2014 was for 12 years just looking for money basically. So since 2014, um, I began to spread as much as I could in three languages about the Institute and develop all these, uh, preparations and diffuse, uh, research.
Speaker 3 00:21:38 So you mentioned earlier, maybe about five minutes ago, the catalog, um, and the library itself here, in addition to being very unique in addition to having this rare books collection, which is incredible, how does a catalog, which is quite that you've developed your, that the Institute has developed itself? Um, can you tell us a bit more about it and how individuals beyond Egypt can use it because it's quite useful?
Speaker 2 00:22:04 So the M I F L aid international foundation for library associations, uh, published a few years ago, a new bibliographic model, a new way of describing, uh, printer resources. Um, and we decided to adopt it as, as soon as it came out, because it is much more adapted to describing the Islamic heritage than the traditional model. The traditional model is known as a mark or uni mark, or, and, um, it is a very flat model. So you have a resource book and you just type in the system. What is on the book? It's very flat. Uh, it's useful. People have been using this years and years, but it's very useful, but, uh, the Arabic heritage, Islamic heritage books and the production intellectual production needs much more than that first, um, all interest in Islamic turf, all the, the works. I don't want to speak of books.
Speaker 2 00:23:18 Now, I'm thinking the words themselves, the are connected commentaries reputation, um, not <inaudible> you have like dif many different relations possible, but in works, we need to connect them. So if you have a shark, that's the best way you need to connect the shot to the Kitab. But if you take on a flat level, a library like us, we have maybe, I don't know, 12 additions of the Kitab. So we don't want to connect each addition to each edition of the sharp, for example, uh, <inaudible> has only one edition. So it's easy to connect it to the, to the book <inaudible> but we have 12 additions of autopsy, but we, so what do we do? We connect sharp survey. The only addition that we have <inaudible> to the 12 additions. Now we need a record of kidnaps evaluate independent from its additions. Something that is called in the system, keep that away.
Speaker 2 00:24:23 And this is a work it's not a book anymore. It's the work itself. And if you say, if you, if you look at, uh, some other commentaries of Sybil, we may have met many additions. So they are also works. So we have this layer of work, actually, the model, then the new I F L E model has four levels work, expression, manifestation, and item. So it's not flat. It's, it's like a pyramid where in Egypt, it's a pyramid at the top. You have the work one single work. Then below you have many expressions and many additions and many items. Some of them are electronic PDFs. Some of them are manuscripts. Some of them are printed. So we gathered them all below the word, the head of the pyramid and all the heads of the pyramids are connected. So this intellectual model that was developed by IFL, there is no software that can record the data.
Speaker 2 00:25:27 So the model exists, but no software is available to catalog it, to use it. So we developed our own software to, to, to, to do this, to be able to catalog the books in this new framework. So what we discovered is that doing it, uh, uh, we were giving a very detailed image of the Islamic turf, very detailed, and you can connect different levels of example. Book can be the commentary on a specific edition one, given item can be commented because it belongs to sane and it was, and then you have an article on this item, so you can connect different levels. You don't have to connect on it horizontally. Um, so we are natively using a system that now other libraries are trying to discover, but our experiences that they don't understand much of it because they don't use it natively. We use it natively.
Speaker 2 00:26:28 So sometimes we see things that they just have a sense of that we we've been using for years now. So, uh, this is the new system, how it can be useful to other people, not in Egypt, because sometime scholars would get lost into a traditional catalog. If you see all the, if you type in a given catalog, that's about when either it is a research library, and then you would find 20 records and it takes time to discover what is, what that is this a Coventry? Is this another addition? Is this a reprint? Is this a translation? What is this? Either you have this and you have 2020 flat records next to one another, and you get to be lost, or it's not a research library. And you have like one record, okay, simple. Then you don't. But in our catalog, we have both, we have one record, just <inaudible> whatever.
Speaker 2 00:27:30 And we have the 20 records or the 30 records of, um, all the different additions and translations and everything. So scholars, they tell us that they use our catalog to understand what is at stake. And then they go to their own library and they pick the books. For example, you have, it happens very, very often that the book would have a title, um, printed on the book, which is not necessarily the title that the author intended. And you may have another edition with a different title, but it's the same book. Um, in our catalog, we have a way of Richard of recording the aura. I mean, originally Jewish have a lot of work and the different possible existing printed titles. And we also sometimes a book it's not obvious from the title that it is a commentary. It is a reputation. Sometimes you have, for example, um, and you also have lost books.
Speaker 2 00:28:31 For example, I was mentioning, I was thinking of debit into, sorry. <inaudible> was written by the Egyptians color, uh, when that, what is scabbard into salt and it's been edited, um, twice, once in the Netherlands. And once, once in, I think Egypt, what is, <inaudible> actually, it's a reputation of <inaudible> reputation of buy whiskey tab, and <inaudible> is lost. This reputation of the key type is lost. So in our catalog, if you open it, you have <inaudible>, you see the biblical political data about it. You see the second edition of it, and it should go up at the level of the work you see, it is actually, although the title may or may not be so obvious at first, you see either a validation of a book that just lost, which is itself a reputation of another book, or this network make it easier for the scholars to understand what they have in their hands.
Speaker 2 00:29:31 And what they're looking for. Sometimes the title is obvious, like shut it. Okay, hold on. It's a shot of another book, but in our catalog, it's connected. So in regular cats, I don't have to look again for that either. And they have many either. So which, you know, is it a connect? Is, is it a country? So, so our catalog, if you're onsite, you use the lesser levels because you want the books in the end. If you're not site, you use the higher levels, which are, it's like a cartography of the Islamic heritage books are written and treat disease and mentorees and refutations and, um, which help you understand what you have in your heads?
Speaker 3 00:30:17 No, that's an excellent summation of it. And again, I would recommend that researchers even outside of Egypt use it because it allows you, as you said, to seed the lineage of that book. And even, I think you've linked a bunch of the academic studies
Speaker 2 00:30:33 Possible. Um, for example, for <inaudible>, we have like more than 200 articles, uh, academic research on it, and it's all connected. And we also record data that we don't books that we don't have. We don't have any problem with this because at the higher level, we may not have it, but we can still do a type of record for it and say, it's lost, or it's not available, or it's still manuscript and we don't have it, but it helps connect it to the other, uh, other words and understand what is there. There is something I forgot to say is that we also systematically catalog, uh, the, at the peace and ethical level, like inside the book, inside a journal. So this, for example, if you think of J store, uh, J store is very practical tool that you use to find articles that otherwise would take you years to discover, but it's maybe in a journal it's you, but you don't have the equivalent of an Arabic website that would be like JCR for Arabic newspapers journals. You do have in Mazuma, but it's not, well-designed, it's not easy to find,
Speaker 3 00:31:44 And it's only accessible in certain countries. So,
Speaker 2 00:31:47 Uh, and does it, so we have one lady that are full-time, uh, cataloging articles in journals in Arabic. So if or in proceedings, so for example, you would discover through our catalog that the jewelry you may have in your university contains a text edition that is not signaled by anyone. So it is, uh, you you'd find it through our catalog and then you'd go in your own stacks and take the job. You have it, but you don't know what is inside.
Speaker 3 00:32:22 No, this is a problem with anything that's not in a European language. If it's a journal yeah. At Princeton where I'm based at, we have the additions, it's just that it's hard to find. And unless you want to look through every physical journal.
Speaker 2 00:32:35 Yeah. So in our catalog is there is a record for everything.
Speaker 3 00:32:38 Um, so I do know, I mean, you ref you alluded to this vaguely that you are linguists, you study the history of Arabic grammar. How much time out of your day do you give to your own research and what form does that take? Like, what is the output? Are you writing articles? Are you doing critical? Additions are so,
Speaker 2 00:32:55 Uh, I'm supposed to be part-time, uh, director and part-time researcher. Actually, it doesn't work that way. Um, in the summer I'm full-time researcher, um, in September and October, I don't have one minute for much for my own research because if the beginning of the academic year, lots of things, uh, have to be, uh, set up. So for example, right now it's been like three months. I could not, I was not able to spend more than one, two hours, uh, one or two hours, um, on my research. So, um, I'm working on two different things. I'm working on a critical edition of <inaudible> based on a very strange manuscript parchment, which is been torn between three places in Milan, in Amazon and in London. So I gathered images, high definition, and I edit the text. It's a very strange manuscript. It's been, um, edited three times. So we have, it's a fifth, 11th century ma uh, parchment from north Africa.
Speaker 2 00:34:10 And it's been edited, corrected, amended by three different successive hands. So I have four layers of the text and I'm editing to follow yours. Um, this is something I'm doing in the long run and, um, in a more short term, I'm writing articles. And I give lectures on specific chapters on the Kitab, based on this manuscript in order to establish my methodology, my editing methodology. So what I, uh, for example, at AUC, the American university, there is a conference in December of Arabic linguistics. And, uh, with other colleagues, we are working on one given chapter of cutups civil way. So I will do my edition, the scientific edition of my manuscript and present my results on this chapter at this lecture. This is what, so this is what I do as a researcher.
Speaker 3 00:35:18 And then of course, there's the thing that we've sort of danced around, which is religion itself. I mean, the role of the church is very clear here. Um, but to what extent are you a monk in a monastery and what role does, I mean, you are a religious, but to what role does religion play in your life and the date of the life of the other brothers here?
Speaker 2 00:35:40 Um, so yeah, it's like, it's a way of life. It's like being married or it's, it's just, we live in a priori, we have prayers daily. Uh, we live together, eat together, pray together, have meetings, decide daily routine daily life, take decisions and et cetera. Um, for me, my experience after 25 years here is that it gives a very strong, um, base, like, uh, how would you say this, um, to go engage very deep into Islam, into Islamic studies, into inter-religious dialogue, because I'm so deeply rooted in a primary in a community life. It is so tight that it gives lots of freedom, paradoxically, maybe, um, it gives lots of freedom to go to go very far into exploration of, of Islam. Um, this is one thing, so it helps me a lot, um, not lose sense of meaning a sense of usefulness. Um, the second thing is that more and more, um, I think we can help Muslims overcome the current crisis of Islam, especially Arabic Islam, where they don't know how to connect between faith.
Speaker 2 00:37:20 And I would say science, I would say historiography, critical historiography. And very often they tell us, how do you do this? Like, you are completely modern in, in mind, you're wearing orange pants, orange pants right now. And you're a mock like how you connect this, how do you all those things together, like critical approach and the fact you're a priest and a monk and you believe in it. Um, so, and they tell us, can you help us do the same, like B con contemporary Muslims and human science aware and critical thinkers. And he started graphical, uh, have historic graphical approach to things and be deeply committed believers. Can you help us do this? So I think the advantage that, for example, we have over lay scholars in Islamic studies who would not be Muslims like late, the typical French Americans color, non Muslim scholar of Islam is that I believe, uh, uh, unless the person is a very, is a believer himself. But what we have is that we know what it is to critically think of your faith. Um, the typical nonbeliever, uh, Western scholar, maybe not. So at ease with faith and thinking faith critically. I don't know if it makes sense. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:39:02 It makes sense. I know we've had this conversation in different shades before. I mean, we were having this conversation before we turned on the microphone is, I mean, I don't know. I think you're, let me ask you a question is your sense that the break with critical engagement in one's faith in the Muslim world came with colonialism just as a, as someone. I mean, I know you're not an Islamic study specialist. You're not a modern historian, but you've lived here and you have a sense of these things.
Speaker 2 00:39:30 This is a question that would be maybe better addressed to other young. Uh he's. He said, uh, it's only once that
Speaker 3 00:39:39 At the end was one of the other brothers we should know here who studies <inaudible>.
Speaker 2 00:39:44 And, um, he told me once that, um, when, uh, Europeans entered and colonized the Arab world and the Islamic Arab world, um, and they came with all that science and critical thinking and the mere diversity, the main difference, it was a shock here, of course, uh, to Muslims. And they would sometimes, um, how do you say yes, they would, they would, um, hide or they would, um, seek refuge into something that would be more typically seen as Islamic, which had fake can Sharia. So his interpretation is that the classical traditional Alama would feel threatened on the field of theology, philosophy, even Sufism, like, you know, because those fields were so well-studied in the west and there would not be so typically Muslim, like, you know, we have something to say as Christians about theology, philosophy, Sufism, spirituality, history. So his interpretation is that the traditional map would say, okay, what is typically Islamic is fear and shame, and you guys have nothing to say on it.
Speaker 2 00:41:13 Like your, all your science has nothing to teach us. So it would be a protective technique to seek refuge into Shalia seen as a typical field that can never be colonized, which made Islam equate to Shaya today. The drama, I think th th th the, the drama that Islam is especially Arabic, Islamic is going through is that many Muslims would believe Islam is Australia, which is very strange and very new. And this may be a consequence of colonialism as a reaction to invasion of all those human sciences into, into the field of religion. So we will define Islam as something that Colin yet colonialism would never enter.
Speaker 3 00:42:08 I agree with that, to some extent, I think it happened a lot later than we think. I think it happened in the early days of, of independence, the decolonial post-colonial period. Um, I think there are pockets in this world that we live in, where people feel that there is no conflict, but I think the more we articulate there is a conflict. The more people buy into that, which really scares me. Like, I don't see, I mean, something you were constantly telling me. And I think this is a line that I use with a lot of people is, um, you know, I'm a Dominican, I'm a priest, I'm a brother, I'm a monk, and I can dress like this. And you'll, you were wearing a graphic t-shirt or pink shorts, or you like loud colors, which I admire about you and your dress. Um, but, uh, and, and people, I think are, I think you say that sometimes in reaction to the fact that people see you and they're like, exactly what you just said. And they're like, how can you be all these things? How can you be someone who believes, but I'm not alone. I
Speaker 2 00:43:09 Mean, it's, it's us, you know, I don't want to get the impression that I am different from my fellow brothers. Just the same, all of us. If you say Lucy Holocracy um,
Speaker 4 00:43:20 Yeah. So it's, it's something that we do. And
Speaker 3 00:43:22 It's your order, too. I think your order has a reputation for that.
Speaker 2 00:43:25 You say this because it's not like my stuff. And people come to me to ask me, they come to us to us.
Speaker 3 00:43:30 Yes. But you were the most orange of all pants.
Speaker 2 00:43:35 Paul has amazing, uh, colors. Uh,
Speaker 3 00:43:39 The other day he was wearing a black jacket. But anyway, but it's funny just on that same note, actually bringing up Paul. So Neil and Luke, other brothers who are here for a shorter period to study and to learn Arabic because you have this fellowship program, is that what you call it? Um, I value my conversations with them and with all of you on a day-to-day basis, because it's these times when you, you, when Islam as a theological school of thought and Christianity as CPR, logical stream of thought can have this interaction. And it's fun to sit down and to compare notes on how we feel as believers. Um, and the other night we were, we were just hanging out and we were talking, we began having this conversation about, I think, abortion. And then we got to, um, the theology of evolution and the big bang theory.
Speaker 3 00:44:30 And it was me and then someone who identifies as an atheist. And it was this really dynamic conversation where we were able to, well, it wasn't fun when Paul and the other individual decided that they know a lot about science, because we're all humanists in the room. Let's stop pretending we know what happens in physics, but it was really interesting to see this theological question of how do you answer the question of why does the universe come into being and what comes before God? Like, is there something that comes before God? What is, what is, what is, how do you deal with all these questions? And it was this moment where we were all taking each other very seriously as people who belonged intellectual traditions of faith. And it's wonderful. And I hope that those conversations can happen more often. I think if they don't happen in this, in academia, it doesn't happen. And I, I think we've been speaking about indirectly about the advantages that you have as an academic, who isn't a professor who isn't part of the traditional academy, is that you have all this freedom to write at your own pace to do all these side projects. Like we mentioned, at some point that you've written a novel that is soon to be published in French. Um, it's just, yeah. I mean, are there any other advantages you feel to not being a professor
Speaker 2 00:45:45 To not being a professor? Um, I have time. I don't have to make, to give makeup classes when I travel so many people. I do have lots of administrative stuff to do, especially because I'm the director, but the, um, uh, my schedule is free. I mean, if I want to go somewhere for a week to study from, to go, I went to Pakistan twice and just decide to go. So, uh, I'm not bound by an calendar agenda, which is the case very often in academia, people are teaching them. And also the, um, I would say the budget, uh, we don't have, which is good and bad, but we don't have a supervision entity above us that tells us do this and do that. We just do what we want. Yeah. So, um, we decided direction where we're going. We have this kind of freedom. It's good and bad at the same time, because also sometimes, um, if we're not challenged by someone pushes you into some direction, it's, you may maybe lose the sense of purpose sometimes.
Speaker 2 00:46:59 So we have to always, so we compensate for this by the fact that we are very communitarian. We decided everything together. I don't think decisions with the asking the others. And so I, I can guarantee that I'm not going my own way and in a crazy direction, like we check all of us and we are very different. So we have different approaches, different generations different. So, uh, so in that way, I can guarantee that so unanimity and community thinking prevents us from, uh, missing choosing the kind of freedom we have, because we don't have any mother institution above us. I would say this. Yeah. I would say the other, the other thing that would say relating to the previous topic is that here in Egypt, I don't want to generalize too much, but in Egypt, the typical Muslim scholar would not be able and would not want to put his faith between brackets when discussing a given topic.
Speaker 2 00:48:00 So it's impossible or almost impossible for an Egyptian's color and Azara university. <inaudible> to tell you, for example, I don't speak as a Muslim. Just like if you see, no, they do all their all must be I as Muslims. So we know as French mocks and scholars, that sometimes it's not the same thing to speak as a believer and to speak as a researcher. It's different things. And sometimes things that, uh, our job is to connect between those things and to be able to travel between those different levels. But here they don't like to do it. And I know what it is to speak as a benefit. So, uh, yeah, I think this kind of flexibility that we have makes it, I mean, I can very easily speak in a Western academic, uh, in a situation where my faith is completely bit in brackets and I don't have to mention it and it's not, uh, supposedly it's not interfering with what I say and here where people, they want me to interact as a Christian, because if they, if we have a corporation with the last heart, they want to know what we as Christians think not we as Western cutters.
Speaker 2 00:49:22 Um, and they, and they expect us to, to react as Christians because they want to see, as I said before, how we hope for us faith and critical thinking come together. So they want to see it. If we just put faith in brackets, we don't help them. So it's very moving because they tell us once, for example, I was giving a lecture at the last heart about, um, it was about the Institute I think, and about, and I told them, why didn't you come dressed as a monk? I see. Well, good question. I think I came dressed in, in with a suit because I, I'm not here as a Markham. I'm here to speak you as a scholar. And they taught me it wasn't in fifth year of maybe 100 people. No, we welcome you as a monk and a scholar. We don't want to make a separation between two.
Speaker 2 00:50:17 So it's like, okay, it's at the end of the lecture. One guy asked me a question about a video he saw, um, it's a spiritual lecture I gave in France. And you said, I watched this video and you say this and this can you command? And I was like, shocked myself. Like I came here to speak about Arabic studies and I have to answer a question about my encounter with God. And I was like, it feels strange for me, but for them, they want to see it. They want to see that it is possible to be a believer and a critical thinker. So they always push us into this direction.
Speaker 3 00:50:57 I want to thank you for your time.
Speaker 2 00:50:59 Thank you for your listening and recording and, um, defusing, uh, the, the activities of this Institute.
Speaker 3 00:51:08 Well, I mean, I, like I said, I have a ridiculously deep, well in my heart for all of you, and the more time I spend with all of you, I can never experience the love that you have for each other as brothers, because I'm not one of you, despite my repeated requests to be made.
Speaker 4 00:51:24 No, no, no.
Speaker 2 00:51:26 We are sexist. You
Speaker 3 00:51:27 Have rules. You have to be Christian. You have to be a man.
Speaker 2 00:51:34 But I do feel a lot that was back in, you know, 200 years. I think things were nice.
Speaker 3 00:51:38 I don't have time, but, uh, I do have so much love for each of you. I mean, all of you have just dealt with me with such respect, but also you're all such characters. Like you all have opinions. It's wonderful. But anyway, thank you so much for your time and the service you do for Muslims and the people. And, um,
Speaker 1 00:52:08 Thank you for listening. And again, a big thank you to John throughout. You can follow the video at ado, Cairo on Twitter. You can follow me at anyone sort of 26, and you can follow the maiden at the maiden on Twitter. The production team includes Micah Hughes, who you can follow at Mica, a Hughes and Ahmed to Kelly a will. And most importantly, audio editor who does our post-production Sophie pots. A big thank you to the Luce foundation. Our music is by blue dot sessions. Be sure to subscribe or follow them down on social media for upcoming episodes and more in the may dance selection of podcasts.
